If Congress and President Obama are looking to employers for support for the latest healthcare bill, the best advice may be, “Look elsewhere.”
A recent survey of 160 employers revealed that most of the bosses believe healthcare reform will lead to higher healthcare costs and a weakening of control over how employers provide coverage to workers.
Here are the numbers from the survey, conducted by business consultant Watson Wyatt:
- 73% believe healthcare costs will increase if current reform legislation is enacted.
- 86% think the legislation would weaken the role and control of employer-sponsored plans.
- Only 29% would support a tax on high-income employees with high-cost plans as a way to fund health reform.
- Only 19% would support a tax on insurers of high-cost plans.
- Only 11% would support taxing employer contributions to health care as income.
- Only 10% would support a mandate for employers to provide coverage.
- 50% would support a mandate for workers to carry coverage.
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Tags: Congress, healthcare, Obama, reform, Watson Wyatt
October 1st, 2009 at 10:04 am
On the list above in the article; are any of those things going to be good for you and I, the people who work and raise families? They clearly won’t be good for small business owners, and they know it. (They’ve read the bill….. has your representitive?) So who is it good for then? A: The ‘entitlement nation’; the slackers and takers, the baby mamas and deadbeat dads, the soon to be ‘new Americans’, the illegal immigrants…. but most of all, it’s good for the Democrats and the current administration. More government, more money, more favors, more power. Is dismantling the ‘American Experiment’, the most successful governmental form in the history of man really what YOU wanted?
October 1st, 2009 at 10:11 am
Gary,
I agree.
October 1st, 2009 at 10:33 am
I don’t find it shocking that business leaders that are the highest paid and normally have better coverage than their employees, are against health care reform. Maybe they should ask the employees that can’t afford the cost of out of pocket expenses not covered by underfunded insurance plans what they think. I don’t understand why business owners and leader wouldn’t welcome the chance to remove insurance from benefits offered to employees from the work place. I don’t see them jumping at the chance to pay part of my auto insurance. Anyone that thinks a total reduction in health care cost is not going benefit everyone doesn’t understand the world we live in. The current reform may not be perfect the first time around but can be amended and changed as pain points are identified. The only thing that everyone should agree on is the current system is broken and needs to be fixed. The only thing dragging it out accomplishes is stopping financial regulatory bills from being presented on the floor.
October 1st, 2009 at 10:52 am
I would ask those business leaders what they would do if their child needs health care. I bet their tune would change fast.
Patrick is right. One of the reasons that American businesses are at a disadvantage globally is that the company occurs some of the cost of the healthcare and has to pass it on to the consumer.
Why is that other industrialized countries can do this and we can’t? I lived for several years in Britain and never had a problem with doctors or healthcare for my son. Don’t listen to propaganda but check out the facts. The health care reform will more than likely cause some costs to go up initially and it may take a while to see the benefits but doing nothing is not an alternative. What do these “business leaders” think will happen if things aren’t changed?
October 1st, 2009 at 11:02 am
Surveys are often malleable as guides to public policy decision-making. Business-oriented publications are often themselves led by people whose opinions are influenced by media outlets that repeatedly broadcast commonly held beliefs about business thinking, mantras that are well known: taxes are bad; successful leaders are entitled to unlimited pay packages; shareholders demand and deserve high quarterly profits, and so on.
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The survey might had been worded differently, for example: “do you believe that a public expansion of Medicare that provides coverage for all Americans and eliminates the profit incentive in health care would help keep America competitive in the global markets?” Perhaps the responses might have been more favorable. No one would argue that a tax-reliant public investment in infrastructure (roads, bridges, ports, rail lines) is bad for private enterprise; yet the present health care system is a weak link in our national infrastructure: its costs are hard to manage, it yields an ever lower return in per capita health indicators, and it drives many people into ruinous debt when illness strikes.
I run a small company that is putting part of a surplus into first-time health coverage for our staff, because we want to retain good people. This is just good planning for us, but it’s hard to replicate and may be hard to maintain. I’d rather we had Medicare for all so that I’d worry less about the health and financial well being of my staff and could focus all more on our corporate mission.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:04 am
Patrick,
I agree.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:19 am
Mr. Layton is spot on correct, could not of said it better. Obama’s bunch is dead wrong again. The plan will not work out better than the best health care system in the world. Until they stop trying to mess with the private business sector(i.e. Banks, Auto Industry, and Health Care), we will not bounce back very strong. This is due to low corporate and consumer confidence. Americans are hunkered down, largely due to all the fake crisis talk and ram it down our throats tactics in Washington D.C.
To Mr. Adkins, that cool-aide will not taste as good coming back up as it did going down.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:22 am
I don’t know who the survey was gathered from, almost all the small business owners I know, consider the present system broken. Once again this year our insurers wanted to increase our premiums by 25% over last year. Eventually we settled for a 10% increase, once again lowering our coverage by higher deductibles, higher visit co-pays and higher prescription costs to our employees. The brokers maintain we’re one of the “luckier” companies since we have a “younger” workforce. The foreseeable future is the consistent erosion of benefits at a steadily increasing cost year over year. Every year we have to address different rules, higher premiums and the nagging disappointment that every year we’ll be providing our employees with less coverage at a higher cost. Just the fact that we are assessed as a single pool of employees is an anomaly – the insurers are covering millions of people why is it that small businesses bear the brunt of the mayhem just because their “pools” are smaller?
Any system is flawed, but the one we have simple seems to be a super highway to diminishing coverage for an exponentially higher annual cost.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:23 am
Wow! Great comment Gary Layton. Let’s bring in the right wing talking points. That should be a big help – just like the Republicans in congress. They have really tried to work on a plan that will benefit the country. RIGHT – NOT!!!
I am a small business owner that sees his (and my employees’) health insurance rates go up every year at a much higher rate than income or increases in the prices of anything else. We have to change carriers every two or three years to get the lowest (rip off) rates. I also have someone right now I would like to hire, but if I did (because of pre-existing conditions) I would not be able to afford the rates. In fact, he is on COBRA from a company that laid off his entire division – and can only hope that he finds a job with another large company so he can get insurance. He cannot even get any kind of insurance because of his past health issues.
It is so amazing how the insurance industry has played all of these “Biz Leaders” for fools. Maybe the “Biz Leaders” are the ones that can afford the rates and just do not care about their employees and other people…. I just don’t get it.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:31 am
Patrick Adkins hit it right on the nose. We are paying up to twice as much as our international competitors for health care and receiving results only marginally better than third world countries. The burden the current system places on us as small business owners is staggering, even though we can only afford to provide marginally effective insurance coverage for our employees. Virtually every other industrialized nation has figured out how to provide basic health care to all its citizens at an acceptable cost. If we fail to progress in that direction now, we will be leaving our children a legacy of incompetence they will have to live with for many years.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:46 am
As a small business owner, healthcare is one of our largest expenses. Overall our healthcare system is too expensive for us to be competative. Healthcare is draining us like a vampire along with buying oil from other countries.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:59 am
I can’t even begin to understand this article. I am one of these business leaders they are citing and I have worked with both large companies and small companies in an executive capacity.
ABSOLUTELY there must be healthcare reform, insurance reform, whatever you want to call it. Our healthcare costs are becoming the biggest problem in our continuing as a company – not because we do not make good products and don’t have great customers. When we have to use 75% of our HR dept’s time trying to find the best way to insure our employees because the health care is so expensive instead of solving other important HR issues, healthcare is broken. When 30% of our operating budget is going to healthcare (instead of funding product development or business development), healthcare is broken. You want to solve unemployment? Lower healthcare costs for companies and we would all be hiring more desperately needed people.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
To Jim Giuliano: Perhaps you’re not getting the overwhelming conservative responses you had expected? Great comments here from most of you.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Patrick…I agree that the health care needs fixed. Who doesn’t agree? The idea of the government getting it right the first time, I agree again, it’s not going to happen. However your rose color glasses need to come off with you thinking they will ever come back to this by fixing amended points. The problem is not just between the two parties, the biggest problem is the trust in government this is GONE! The congress sitting in their warm fuzzy offices, are they getting hit with any 20% pay cuts on their check? They have budget cuts so layoff people that’s the solution. The health care they get is never going to be the same as the care I will ever get. We need the government, congress each one to step up, get on the same page with the taxpayers, the small businesses. Do you hear the government saying they know how hard it is for all Americans, but do they feel it? Do they have their pay cut 20%, or no more paid vacation time, or no paid Holidays? What have they given up? The taxpayers have to tighten their belts and things are going to be that way for a little longer, a little longer, Oh…congress has to take their vacation. We’ll come back to this problem! As long as it does not affect them, it will be a debate between parties. We are the sidekicks, the cheerleaders, not their boss. After all they are suppose to be working for us “we the people”. Until congress starts to share the pain they will not come up with a solution. This is not just about Health care reform, so the debate continues…..
October 1st, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I don’t know about anyone else, but no matter what company I worked at large or small, I had wonderful insurance coverage. Has anyone ever considered what the business owner pays out in premiums vs. what the employer asks of its employees? Usually, the employee gets their healthcare for free and just has to pay a PORTION of their dependent coverage. What is everyone griping about? Nothing is free in this world. In the end, whatever the ‘government’ PAYS for is ultimately paid for by the taxpayer. Um, that is you and I. Don’t you get it? I don’t want the government telling me what doctor I can see and what procedure I am ‘worthy’ of. I have never been refused a test or procedure by our insurance company. I have NO idea what you people are talking about. NO to so-called healthcare reform. Why did the Democrats block the bill to allow citizens to cross state lines to compare/shop for insurance companies?? Hmmmm.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:25 pm
“do you believe that a public expansion of Medicare that provides coverage for all Americans and eliminates the profit incentive in health care would help keep America competitive in the global markets?
Rewording the question to this as suggested above wouldn’t be accurate. The proposed plan wants to take 500 billion dollars FROM the Medicare program, not expand it. Let’s be honest, tort reform is an important but completely ignored aspect. It must be addressed so ‘defensive medicine’ can be halted. People with pre-existing conditions need an ‘assigned risk pool’ or similar concept so companies doing business in a geography have to help out… but can you cite any examples of ‘competitive, service-oriented’ non-profits? And you cannot pay real bills with savings! (anyone with a wife who ’saved’ half of an expensive purchase knows that the bill still comes in for the other half of the purchase. There is nothing saved) You cannot add coverage for at least 30 million people for nothing. At the end of the day, this is about ‘economic justice’ as Obama defines it. You work hard, you have money; in Obamaworld that means that the needy have rights to stuff and you have the obligation to foot the bill. After all the smooth talk and fancy footwork, that’s what this is about.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I am a business owner and the survey results do not represent my view either. Health insurance is the fastest growing expense that we have – and we are relatively healthy. If one of my employees gets sick our cost could go up by 30% or more in one year. This needs to be fixed.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
As a small business owner; I have a hard time seeing survey results of a 160 businesses from a company that services are unaffordable to most small to mid size business and thinking it is unbiased. I know from my own situation and most of my small business friends, if we don’t fix this healthcare system with a public option, we’re not going to be able to afford insurance.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Most of the comments above come from people who have no clue whatsoever about medical insurance, why it costs what it does, and how the system has gotten us to where we are, so I’ll refrain from defining it except to say it’s not the business owners and insurance companies who are to blame. It’s the government who requires many mandates on the policies which drive costs; it’s the malpractice insurance required to practice medicine which demands “defensive” medicine in even minor cases; and it’s government (again, no surprise) which doesn’t permit tax breaks to individuals who would buy their own insurance and won’t allow interstate purchases of insurance which would reduce costs.
Everyone blames the insurance companies when they are the last link in the cost scenario.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
It sounds like most of you already have health insurance. Does your employer pay? How long do you think your employer will pay if health care costs continue to rise at 7-9% per year? Can you afford to pay your own insurance in an open market? Can you even get insurance on your own?
My family pays $15,000 per year for health insurance. We’ve just been told that it will go up 7% next year and starting January 1 our co-pays double. You folks really want to do nothing?
October 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pm
It is amazing to read some of the responses on this sight. I cant believe that any small businessman would be against major changes in our health care system including a public option. To claim that the insurance industry is not to blame for our health care crisis is Alice In Wonderland logic. The insurance companies are in business to make money thats their job and they are doing it with a vengence. Why is it that we have the most expensive health care costs in the world and getting the least amount of results. Its not the government and its not the lawyers. Its our politicians and insurance companies that have created a system thats broken. Create a public option, and fix some of the most outrageous insurance company practices and watch our health care system catch up with the rest of the world.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Note that the Republicans’ retort, the Patient’s Choice Act “eliminates the employer deduction for health insurance” (http://campbell.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2559&Itemid=73)
Whether from the left or right, changes are coming–as they must–and our best recourse is to put down idealogical pitchforks and become informed citizens. The CBO is the swing vote that both sides of the aisle point to to buttress claims (only when convenient.) If you’re angry enough to complain, you should be angry enough to read bipartisian analysis (e.g., malpractice tort reform results in inconsequential savings; co-ops will acquire no significant market share) at http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=193.
I, too, am a small business owner (in the independent principality of Texas, no less) and fullly support big changes, such as a MedPAC with teeth. My friends–doctors, execs or fellow biz owners–are all self-avowed Republicans and agree that the climate on the right has gotten ridiculously virulent and that the status quo will only lead to insolvency…as would tinkering around the edges.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Well, I guess I was not in the 160 “business leader” category since I was not contacted. Being in business for 24 years, I would welcome the reform and the “public” component. The insurance companies are the ones with the lobbies winning the hearts, minds and campaign coffers of our representatives (who are afforded pretty good health insurance paid by the rest of us). The majority of our population can ill afford the cost for coverage. As one of the most wealthy nations, it is unconscionable!!!
October 1st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I think that Congress is insincere and in the pockets of the insurance companies. It’s way past time to call for their arrest and all tossed in jail.
Without the so-called Public Option, there can be no real health care reform.
This is a complete repeat of the no-fault crap pushed onto us taxpayers back in the ’80’s. You can’t learn from history if you aren’t willing to read. We now pay (in real money terms) 4 to 5 times for car insurance today versus what we used to pay for auto insurance. The same is happening to health insurance today.
Insurance Companies are writing the reform laws so we are not going to get reform, we are going to get higher rates, no choice, more denials of coverage, forced to pay and that’s all!
As a small employer, we are completely priced-out of the health insurance market now. I have no idea what we can do if we are forced to pay higher rates. We will have to shut down.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:18 pm
LEU: I will tentatively agree when you say business owners are not at fault for the current crisis…they are caught in the middle up to and until the point that they start to side with the insurance industry to prevent any progress in reform. THEN they start to bear some of the blame. However, what planet are you on to claim that insurance companies are innocent? After all, they only deny payment of claims; deny coverage; and pass along costs to the consumer whenever their profit margins do not meet expectations. I’m not saying they are totally to blame for this mess, but they are certainly not innocent.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
If we used car insurance like we use health insurance, we’d all be on foot. Probably healthier for it! We need a system of insurance that works like insurance is designed to do: guard against the catastrophic and unlikely event. Paired with that we need a system of preventive care benefits – to help make the catastrophic event unlikely. Both systems need to include the healthy participation of the person involved. If you eat badly, don’t exercise, smoke and use/abuse substances, etc. your costs are higher because, guess what? you made the unlikely inevitable. We need absolute support for and funding of effective prevention and maintenance care, whether you’re talking chronic diseases like diabetes or lifestyle diseases like cardiovascular disease. It just flat costs less in terms of dollars and quality of life to do the right thing at the right time as aggressively as you can. Businesses that invest in promoting healthy lifestyles and support preventive care realize real benefits to their bottom line as employees consume less catastrophic care and their days or hours away from productive work is reduced.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Mandating insurance coverage without providing a mechanism for small groups to obtain affordable coverage is absurd! Without looking at a large enough pool of members like large employers, no small business can afford to purchase coverage and stay in business, and they can’t price there services up enough to cover the overhead and be competitive with large businesses. Since small busineses fuel the economy this would be a disaster, and nobody is focusing on the real issue which is that small businesses can’t purchase coverage at the same price as large groups. The only winner with mandated coverage is the insurance companies unless there is a mandated large-group premium option available to small businesses to go with it. To “allow” employers to purchase a medicare-type coverage directly from the government at rates similar to large group premiums would be the best option, but no one wants to accept the reality that this is coverage the insurance companies can’t or won’t provide and it is business that they currently don’t have or want anyway. The funding could come from premiums paid directly to medicare (or some other name) paid monthly by employers. It is not competition from the government with private sector because it is all NEW business and won’t compete with private industry as long as the governments premium actuarial tables are financially sound. I know the government option is always 5 times more expensive and 20% as efficient than it should be, but it is still going to be cheaper and the only affordable option for the small employer.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:37 pm
I didn’t state the insurance companies are innocent – just that they are the low end of the spectrum compared to actual costs. My concern is that if we got government out of the picture many of the costs would go away. Also, if we allowed competition of the free market – minus mandates, and let people cross state lines to buy insurance – that would reduce costs as well.
Remember folks – insurance is NOT pre-paid health care, which is what most folks want. I say, make health care insurance just like auto insurance and many of the problems go away. That, and get rid of the trial lawyers effect on the industry.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Healthcare reform – YES! Obamacare – NO! You need to distinguish between fixing a broken healthcare system and abandoning our current system for a Government-controlled bureaucratic nightmare. Were the employers polled talking about the former or the latter?
October 1st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
This article is very shoddy reporting. Where is a citation for the survey? Who was polled? (I.e. what does “boss” mean, CxOs, VPs, Directors, owners? Were these the only questions in the poll? When was the poll taken? Who funded the survey? Sheesh. This article is worse than useless. But, since the author didn’t provide any reference material, I’ll assume this is the survey: http://www.watsonwyatt.com/news/press.asp?ID=22372
October 1st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Just reading back through the comments…. It seems the ones against real health care reform are mostly just speaking politically. No one that has identified themselves as small business owners is against reform. And some show their true colors by calling it “Obamacare”.
I would also venture a guess that all of those opposed to changing have never really had a serious health issue where the insurance company has the power to deny claims. Our system is NOT the best in the world and needs changing.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Esther: As opposed to an uncontrolled bureaucratic nightmare where the insurance companies have free reign? Without government oversight what do you think we would end up with? And don’t even say the free market would police itself.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Gordon: Since when is making a profit a crime or a bad thing? If no one made a profit, then no one would work. You are talking communism if you are against anyone making a profit. Why don’t you go after the high cost of movies? Actors sure as heck make more money (obscenely) than do insurance companies. And how about Michael Jordan? How much was the price of a ticket to see him — play — basketball? Did anyone complain about that high price?? and now he’s building a $7 MILLION dollar house in Florida. I don’t hear anyone complaining about that. Let me hear the Obama administration start laying down laws about limiting a basketball player’s salary, like they do about businessmen. Or an actor’s salary. Come on, play fair. You can’t have it both ways.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I am so disappointed in the attacks on the President that so personalize an effort that any serious leader must make to fix this system. “Obamaworld” is our world, just as “Bush-speak” was “our”-speak. We elect our Presidents based on what they say they are going to do, and the current President is trying to address a problem that is recognized by so many as needing serious fixing.
The idea that health care is not currently rationed FOR THE INSURED is laughable. I pay $856 per month out of pocket for my private, personal health insurance, and when I needed it this year – a sports-related Achilles tendon rupture – the insurer first denied all coverage of a two-night hospital visit awaiting possible surgery, and the reason given was that “there was still blood flow in my foot.” No doctor wrote that, it was a bean-counter whose job is to deny, deny, deny coverage all the time for any claim, which then the hospital and insured need to spend time and resources to fight, until the insurance company pays. That’s the profit incentive working in direct counter-point to the well being and health of the patient. When I tried follow-up care with the surgeon, he was ‘out-of-network” and the care would not be covered, so my choice of doctor was denied and I had to find an insurance company-approved doctor not of my choosing. My primary care provider has dropped all insurance plans because they were bleeding him dry, so now we have to pretend that I have another primary care provider in order for me to get any tests or other “in-network” treatment covered.
What planet are you on to think that this is “the greatest health care system in the world” or to pretend that some kind of monster called “Obamacare” is going to limit your “choice” under the proposed changes or pull the plug on granny? The scary future you describe is the present private system, and my stories are nothing compared to what’s happening to millions of people right now under a system that above all insures a steady flow of profits more than a steady delivery of excellent care and “choice.”
By the way, I just received a letter stating that my insurance premium is going up to $973 per month November 1st “due to a rapid rise in health care costs in the region.” This is almost an annual phenomenon, and it’s completely controlled by my profit-seeking insurer. I have no say. At least with a public option, I’d have a vote and accountable elected officials. With my insurer, I have some very slick, extremely well-paid corporate leaders whose corporate structure and compensation packages stack revenue streams from millions of premiums in their personal favor, always. They never add in these letters “…and to insure a steady high rate of profit for our company.” No need.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Gordon: Do you need the government to wipe your butt, too? After all, you may miss a spot.
October 1st, 2009 at 1:59 pm
As an employer of nearly 30 people I know we need health care and nobody but the Democrats have put it on their agenda. The private option today is expensive and inefficient. I won’t make the ludicrous claim that I have read the 1018 page health care proposal like some of your other readers. I have read distillations and high points. I say we have to break the current mold and do it differently. That means I am for this health plan or any better one that can be enacted.
October 1st, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Pretty moronic comment Sheila, are you in bed with the insurance companies?
October 1st, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Gordon: I’ll thank you to stop putting words in my mouth. You cannot convince me, sarcastically or otherwise that HR 3200, which not even Evelyn Woods could read in the 72 hours allotted Congress back in August (not to mention the cadre of $500-per-hour attorneys she would need to UNDERSTAND it) is the answer to our healthcare woes. Business efficiency experts and doctors, NOT GOVERNMENT, need to fix this mess. It’s just plain stupid to replace something that isn’t working with something WORSE that isn’t working!
October 1st, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I have to disagree with this thread. Our small business’ premiums went up by 20% after a year in which my family visited the Doctor 5 times total.
If we increase competition, governance and hold the threat of their members switching to the government run system, Humana (current provider) would have something to lose.
October 1st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
How about a simple solution of calculating what the average costs are to supply Medicare and offering a buy-in. No additional beauracracy needs to be created. Should also bring down the per-capita Medicare costs.
October 1st, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Everyone is so busy fussing over the effect…. instead of focusing on illness, why are we not focusing on the causes. Please do not point to “Cancer research” That is an industry unto itself. there are so many alternative health care possibilities and books and films and documentaries on them available.
When the fish and wildlife in a lake start getting sick, do we bring them into the doctors office and give them a prescription? Or do we send a team of scientists to find out what’s in the food and water?
its all very basic and very simple, as all of life is in the end. This is just more smoke and mirrors, used to keep everyone’s focus off what is really going on in the food, water and drug industry. The inconvenient truth of it all. Maybe everyone should pay 100% for themselves. then maybe they will think twice before they stick that yellow dyed processed cheese in their mouth!
October 1st, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Esther: So you propose that the government should step back and not do anything? Isn’t that what’s been happening for the past – what 40 years? Hasn’t gotten better has it? Any bill that goes into sufficient detail to deal with an issue this large and important is going to have to be lengthy – unlike the last Republican budget proposal which was laughable in its brevity and generalities. If “business efficiency experts” and doctors have solutions that’s great. The more great ideas that are proposed, the better. But in the end the government will have a very big role in both getting reform and in overseeing the insurance industry.
October 1st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
You can control health care costs. You will just get health care that is not as good. That will be the end result.
For example, a cancer treatment that is only effective in 7% of the cases that’s very expensive. This will be eliminated because of the cost-to-benefit ratio, if you beleive otherwise you are being unrealistic.
Place limitations on cancelling coverage and denying coverage, preexisting conditions should be allowed if you have had health insurance. If not you get treatment anyway and have to claim bankruptcy for being irresponsible. No insurance for illegal aliens that is just stupid.
Add tort reform to offset this and we are all set. Americans should be wary of a government with too much power, we need to rely less on government (republican or democrat) and more on ourselves.
October 1st, 2009 at 3:23 pm
I am tired of hearing complaints about greedy corporations! The health insurance industry works on an incredibly small profit margin. Don’t believe me, check out http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SoMLoWBKM4I/AAAAAAAAK4g/wKdZyg5LxQ0/s1600-h/profits.bmp. Also, the top three health insurance providers in Oregon are non-profits (Blue Cross, Pacific Source, and Kaiser Permanente).
Our government, all parties included, blames big corporate greed, and then turns around and gives them our tax dollars! Show me a successful social program by our government and I’ll consider the plan. I can show you many successful private enterprises. Here’s a really cool one http://www.pjtv.com/v/2331.
The late Milton Freedman does the best job of explaining why government run social programs will never work with regard to spending:
Your money spent on you: you demand highest quality and lowest cost
Your money spent on someone else: you demand low cost quality less important
Somebody else’s money spent on you: you demand highest quality, cost less important
Somebody else’s money spent on someone else: you don’t demand quality or cost
Nobody spends your money better than you. Put the control back in the hands of the consumer.
Also, health insurance should be for catastrophic events only. Then we won’t be paying for hypochondriacs like my sister!
October 1st, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Testimony of Wendell Potter, Philadelphia, PA Before the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation
June 24, 2009
My name is Wendell Potter and for 20 years, I worked as a senior executive at health insurance companies, and I saw how they confuse their customers and dump the sick — all so they can satisfy their Wall Street investors.
I know from personal experience that members of Congress and the public have good reason to question the honesty and trustworthiness of the insurance industry. Insurers make promises they have no intention of keeping, they flout regulations designed to protect consumers, and they make it nearly impossible to understand — or even to obtain — information we need. As you hold hearings and discuss legislative proposals over the coming weeks, I encourage you to look very closely at the role for-profit insurance companies play in making our health care system both the most expensive and one of the most dysfunctional in the world. I hope you get a real sense of what life would be like for most of us if the kind of so-called reform the insurers are lobbying for is enacted.
A few months after I joined the health insurer CIGNA Corp. in 1993, just as the last national health care reform debate was underway, the president of CIGNA’s health care division was one of three industry executives who came here to assure members of Congress that they would help lawmakers pass meaningful reform. While they expressed concerns about some of President Clinton’s proposals, they said they enthusiastically supported several specific goals.
Those goals included covering all Americans; eliminating underwriting practices like pre-existing condition exclusions and cherry-picking; the use of community rating; and the creation of a standard benefit plan. Had the industry followed through on its commitment to those goals, I wouldn’t be here today.
Today we are hearing industry executives saying the same things and making the same assurances. This time, though, the industry is bigger, richer and stronger, and it has a much tighter grip on our health care system than ever before. In the 15 years since insurance companies killed the Clinton plan, the industry has consolidated to the point that it is now dominated by a cartel of large for-profit insurers.
Read the rest here:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/potter_testimony.html
October 1st, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I agree that low co-pays are a serious problem. I have no co-pay and a 2500.00 deductible before my insurance pays anything. My family is healthly and I still pay 11,000 a year in premiums.
What angers me is that I bet my premiums help cover the person that went to my doctor the other day with three(count them three mosquito bites) and had a $20 dollar co-pay. Get real people!
Eliminating these $20 co-pays would be a good start.
Tort reform must also be done.
This system need rebuilt from the ground up. I’m am not into just throwing public money at this issue and hope they can make changes as we go to fix it. Lets fix the underlying issues. I only mentioned two.
October 1st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
I beleive everyone is missing the point here. Health care needs reformed no doubt, but not by more government control, but less. Remove obstructive combersome government regulations and the problem will begin to resolve itself. Allow competitive free enterprise to flourish and costs will get lower as with any industry. Insurance companies want the business and will compete for it if the consumer was allowed to shop any where in the nation. Government incentives and tax cuts would all contribute to lowering costs. I say fix the problem by doing what Americans do best in the private sector and let the government be the watch dog not the manager. Obamas health care plan is nothing more then big government takeover of another industry in America. It has very little to do with better and more reasonable healthcare and more to do with control of another facet of American life. The government is horrible at managing anything and 90% of the people feel that and know that, so why are we continuing a debate over nationalized health care. We all want the same thing so why not pursue this from another prespective of less government, not more. That by the way is what so many people are fighting for ( Less, not more Government ). All want the same health care benefits and cost control but from two camps —- Americans are the best in the world at creating human comforts and equility. Just look around. We can still do it.
October 1st, 2009 at 4:22 pm
What ever happened to Mutual Companies? We still use one and this year we recieved a dividend check for about 20% of our paid premiums. We really needed it this year. This was because the losses were not as large as anticipated. If we were with a Publicly traded company those would have been lost premiums gone to pay big corporate bounus for making the stockholders money.
October 1st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
When I hear such myths repeated — for example, “we have the best health care system in the world” — I am further disappointed by the business constituency. Our system may be excellent for the rich, but by all objective standards, it ranks very low among industrialized nations; its a failure that continues to decline. That said, there are legitimate issues to work through in order to achieve a good system. But when I hear intelligent business people base their opinions on a suite of myths and political superstition, I wonder at their capacity to do business. It is incumbent on BusinessBrief.com to bring factual information on this important issue to this important constituency.
October 1st, 2009 at 5:48 pm
As a small business owner, we need to make health care more affordable to employees and the current system is definitely not working. It continues to increase at a rate greater than inflation. We need a change to be able to compete with the the big corporations that use their group health insurance plan as way to keep the employee under control.
October 1st, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Gordon: are you in bed with the government?
October 1st, 2009 at 5:55 pm
For all you people who don’t understand the ERISA laws, all employees of a company get the same health coverage. The boss doesn’t get better coverage than the janitor, sorry to burst your bubble.
October 1st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
and Gordon: you didn’t answer any of my questions. Why? Because you can’t. You can’t just pick one or two or three industries and tell them they have a cap on salaries. then give bailout money to all the rest that YOU think deserve it. Oh, does being ‘in bed with the unions’ have anything to do with Obama’s health care plan and bailout plans? hmmm.
October 1st, 2009 at 6:56 pm
THIS IS SO STUPID… BUSINESS HAS NO PROBLEM TAKING TAX PAYER DOLLARS TO BAIL THEM OUT FROM THEIR STUPID MISTAKES BUT WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED BUSINESS, WHERE IS BUSINESS. THIS IS TELLING.
WAKE UP! YOU ARE PRIVILEDGED TO DO BUSINESS IN AMERICA. WHEN IS AMERICAN BUSINESS GOING TO BE MORE ABOUT MAKING A PROFIT. THIS IS VERY SAD. AMERICAN BUSINESS TOOK BILLIONS FROM THE VERY WORKERS THEY NOW DONT WANT TO PAY FOR. I WANT MY MONEY BACK FROM BUSINESS!
October 1st, 2009 at 7:59 pm
A recent survey of 160 employers revealed that MOST of the BOSSES BELIEVE HEALTHCARE REFORM WILL LEAD TO higher healthcare costs and A WEAKENING OF CONTROL OVER how employers provide coverage to WORKERS.
Sometimes the truth is between the lines…..
October 1st, 2009 at 9:40 pm
While attempting to sort out the healthcare/insurance situation, the one fact that I know for sure is that the faith-based not-for-profit of which I am CEO can no longer provide healthcare and disability for the employees. Many of the employees are minimum wage with the highest hourly at under $15.00. By the way, my annual salary is under $46,000 and I have been there over 30 years.
At the same time, the Board and I aren’t wallowing in self-pity, but rather looking at new ways to increase our cash in order to afford whatever comes out of the healthcare reform.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:01 pm
I have had my own construction company 35 years and I want to ask each of you; How can we build a health care system that will function if we are looking at the wrong problems? I will suggest one challenge not discussed very often: Our current system looks at disease at later stages (which is what makes it so expensive); instead perhaps we need to look at heath by helping people keep healthy, pre-screening and better information and encouragement of what is really healthy to eat and physical activity that is enjoyable from childhood through adulthood.
May I ask, do some of you have some other suggestions to create a constructive dialogue on becoming a healthier nation?
ALSO:
I feel the full testimony from an insurance industry insider, Wendell Potter, should be printed out in full, so please see the full speach at below. Thanks to Gordon for the reminder:
The last line is notworthy: “But what we have today, Mr. Chairman, is a Wall Street-run system that has proven itself an untrustworthy partner to its customers, to the doctors and hospitals who deliver care, and to the state and federal governments that attempt to regulate it.”
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—————————————————————————–
July 10, 2009
Testimony of Wendell Potter, Philadelphia, PA Before the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation
June 24, 2009
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to be here this afternoon. My name is Wendell Potter and for 20 years, I worked as a senior executive at health insurance companies, and I saw how they confuse their customers and dump the sick — all so they can satisfy their Wall Street investors.
I know from personal experience that members of Congress and the public have good reason to question the honesty and trustworthiness of the insurance industry. Insurers make promises they have no intention of keeping, they flout regulations designed to protect consumers, and they make it nearly impossible to understand — or even to obtain — information we need. As you hold hearings and discuss legislative proposals over the coming weeks, I encourage you to look very closely at the role for-profit insurance companies play in making our health care system both the most expensive and one of the most dysfunctional in the world. I hope you get a real sense of what life would be like for most of us if the kind of so-called reform the insurers are lobbying for is enacted.
When I left my job as head of corporate communications for one of the country’s largest insurers, I did not intend to go public as a former insider. However, it recently became abundantly clear to me that the industry’s charm offensive — which is the most visible part of duplicitous and well-financed PR and lobbying campaigns — may well shape reform in a way that benefits Wall Street far more than average Americans.
A few months after I joined the health insurer CIGNA Corp. in 1993, just as the last national health care reform debate was underway, the president of CIGNA’s health care division was one of three industry executives who came here to assure members of Congress that they would help lawmakers pass meaningful reform. While they expressed concerns about some of President Clinton’s proposals, they said they enthusiastically supported several specific goals.
Those goals included covering all Americans; eliminating underwriting practices like pre-existing condition exclusions and cherry-picking; the use of community rating; and the creation of a standard benefit plan. Had the industry followed through on its commitment to those goals, I wouldn’t be here today.
Today we are hearing industry executives saying the same things and making the same assurances. This time, though, the industry is bigger, richer and stronger, and it has a much tighter grip on our health care system than ever before. In the 15 years since insurance companies killed the Clinton plan, the industry has consolidated to the point that it is now dominated by a cartel of large for-profit insurers.
The average family doesn’t understand how Wall Street’s dictates determine whether they will be offered coverage, whether they can keep it, and how much they’ll be charged for it. But, in fact, Wall Street plays a powerful role. The top priority of for-profit companies is to drive up the value of their stock. Stocks fluctuate based on companies’ quarterly reports, which are discussed every three months in conference calls with investors and analysts. On these calls, Wall Street investors and analysts look for two key figures: earnings per share and the medical-loss ratio, or medical “benefit ratio,” as the industry now terms it. That is the ratio between what the company actually pays out in claims and what it has left over to cover sales, marketing, underwriting and other administrative expenses and, of course, profits.
To win the favor of powerful analysts, for-profit insurers must prove that they made more money during the previous quarter than a year earlier and that the portion of the premium going to medical costs is falling. Even very profitable companies can see sharp declines in stock prices moments after admitting they’ve failed to trim medical costs. I have seen an insurer’s stock price fall 20 percent or more in a single day after executives disclosed that the company had to spend a slightly higher percentage of premiums on medical claims during the quarter than it did during a previous period. The smoking gun was the company’s first-quarter medical loss ratio, which had increased from 77.9% to 79.4% a year later.
To help meet Wall Street’s relentless profit expectations, insurers routinely dump policyholders who are less profitable or who get sick. Insurers have several ways to cull the sick from their rolls. One is policy rescission. They look carefully to see if a sick policyholder may have omitted a minor illness, a pre-existing condition, when applying for coverage, and then they use that as justification to cancel the policy, even if the enrollee has never missed a premium payment. Asked directly about this practice just last week in the House Energy and Commerce Committee, executives of three of the nation’s largest health insurers refused to end the practice of cancelling policies for sick enrollees. Why? Because dumping a small number of enrollees can have a big effect on the bottom line. Ten percent of the population accounts for two-thirds of all health care spending. The Energy and Commerce Committee’s investigation into three insurers found that they canceled the coverage of roughly 20,000 people in a five-year period, allowing the companies to avoid paying $300 million in claims.
They also dump small businesses whose employees’ medical claims exceed what insurance underwriters expected. All it takes is one illness or accident among employees at a small business to prompt an insurance company to hike the next year’s premiums so high that the employer has to cut benefits, shop for another carrier, or stop offering coverage altogether — leaving workers uninsured. The practice is known in the industry as “purging.” The purging of less profitable accounts through intentionally unrealistic rate increases helps explain why the number of small businesses offering coverage to their employees has fallen from 61 percent to 38 percent since 1993, according to the National Small Business Association. Once an insurer purges a business, there are often no other viable choices in the health insurance market because of rampant industry consolidation.
An account purge so eye-popping that it caught the attention of reporters occurred in October 2006 when CIGNA notified the Entertainment Industry Group Insurance Trust that many of the Trust’s members in California and New Jersey would have to pay more than some of them earned in a year if they wanted to continue their coverage. The rate increase CIGNA planned to implement, according to USA Today, would have meant that some family-plan premiums would exceed $44,000 a year. CIGNA gave the enrollees less than three months to pay the new premiums or go elsewhere.
Purging through pricing games is not limited to letting go of an isolated number of unprofitable accounts. It is endemic in the industry. For instance, between 1996 and 1999, Aetna initiated a series of company acquisitions and became the nation’s largest health insurer with 21 million members. The company spent more than $20 million that it received in fees and premiums from customers to revamp its computer systems, enabling the company to “identify and dump unprofitable corporate accounts,” as The Wall Street Journal reported in 2004. Armed with a stockpile of new information on policyholders, new management and a shift in strategy, in 2000, Aetna sharply raised premiums on less profitable accounts. Within a few years, Aetna lost 8 million covered lives due to strategic and other factors.
While strategically initiating these cost hikes, insurers have professed to be the victims of rising health costs while taking no responsibility for their share of America’s health care affordability crisis. Yet, all the while, health-plan operating margins have increased as sick people are forced to scramble for insurance.
Unless required by state law, insurers often refuse to tell customers how much of their premiums are actually being paid out in claims. A Houston employer could not get that information until the Texas legislature passed a law a few years ago requiring insurers to disclose it. That Houston employer discovered that its insurer was demanding a 22 percent rate increase in 2006 even though it had paid out only 9 percent of the employer’s premium dollars for care the year before.
It’s little wonder that insurers try to hide information like that from its customers. Many people fall victim to these industry tactics, but the Houston employer might have known better — it was the Harris County Medical Society, the county doctors’ association.
A study conducted last year by PricewaterhouseCoopers revealed just how successful the insurers’ expense management and purging actions have been over the last decade in meeting Wall Street’s expectations. The accounting firm found that the collective medical-loss ratios of the seven largest for-profit insurers fell from an average of 85.3 percent in 1998 to 81.6 percent in 2008. That translates into a difference of several billion dollars in favor of insurance company shareholders and executives and at the expense of health care providers and their patients.
There are many ways insurers keep their customers in the dark and purposely mislead them — especially now that insurers have started to aggressively market health plans that charge relatively low premiums for a new brand of policies that often offer only the illusion of comprehensive coverage.
An estimated 25 million Americans are now underinsured for two principle reasons. First, the high deductible plans many of them have been forced to accept — like I was forced to accept at CIGNA — require them to pay more out of their own pockets for medical care, whether they can afford it or not. The trend toward these high-deductible plans alarms many health care experts and state insurance commissioners. As California Lieutenant Governor John Garamendi told the Associated Press in 2005 when he was serving as the state’s insurance commissioner, the movement toward consumer-driven coverage will eventually result in a “death spiral” for managed care plans. This will happen, he said, as consumer-driven plans “cherry-pick” the youngest, healthiest and richest customers while forcing managed care plans to charge more to cover the sickest patients. The result, he predicted, will be more uninsured people.
In selling consumer-driven plans, insurers often try to persuade employers to go “full replacement,” which means forcing all of their employees out of their current plans and into a consumer-driven plan. At least two of the biggest insurers have done just that, to the dismay of many employees who would have preferred to stay in their HMOs and PPOs. Those options were abruptly taken away from them.
Secondly, the number of uninsured people has increased as more have fallen victim to deceptive marketing practices and bought what essentially is fake insurance. The industry is insistent on being able to retain so-called “benefit design flexibility” so they can continue to market these kinds of often worthless policies. The big insurers have spent millions acquiring companies that specialize in what they call “limited-benefit” plans. An example of such a plan is marketed by one of the big insurers under the name of Starbridge Select. Not only are the benefits extremely limited but the underwriting criteria established by the insurer essentially guarantee big profits. Pre-existing conditions are not covered during the first six months, and the employer must have an annual employee turnover rate of 70 percent or more, so most of the workers don’t even stay on the payroll long enough to use their benefits. The average age of employees must not be higher than 40, and no more than 65 percent of the workforce can be female. Employers don’t pay any of the premiums—the employees pay for everything. As Consumer Reports noted in May, many people who buy limited-benefit policies, which often provide little or no hospitalization, are misled by marketing materials and think they are buying more comprehensive care. In many cases it is not until they actually try to use the policies that they find out they will get little help from the insurer in paying the bills.
The lack of candor and transparency is not limited to sales and marketing. Notices that insurers are required to send to policyholders—those explanation-of-benefit documents that are supposed to explain how the insurance company calculated its payments to providers and how much is left for the policyholder to pay—are notoriously incomprehensible. Insurers know that policyholders are so baffled by those notices they usually just ignore them or throw them away. And that’s exactly the point. If they were more understandable, more consumers might realize that they are being ripped off.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for beginning this conversation on transparency and for making this such a priority. S. 1050, your legislation to require insurance companies to be more honest and transparent in how they communicate with consumers, is essential. So, too, is S. 9 1278, the Consumers Choice Health Plan, which would create a strong public health insurance option as a benchmark in transparency and quality. Americans need and overwhelmingly support the option of obtaining coverage from a public plan. The industry and its backers are using fear tactics, as they did in 1994, to tar a transparent, publicly-accountable health care option as a “government-run system.” But what we have today, Mr. Chairman, is a Wall Street-run system that has proven itself an untrustworthy partner to its customers, to the doctors and hospitals who deliver care, and to the state and federal governments that attempt to regulate it.
October 1st, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Please post the survey questions and a description of methodology—like how those surveyed were selected (randomized sample? all types of business or partial sectors? how large a geographic area?), number of surveys distributed/number returned, whether focus groups were used to refine question clarity, how might the surveying organization(consultant) be affected by different survey outcome scenarios…),etc. If the survey was done well it merits our serious thought. If not it merely contributes to a “bad debate”. It doesn’t take much to get interest stirred up in a society that has somehow become more polarized than problem solving focused. I hope we’re all understanding the legislative process and aware that we’re still in the “batting ideas around” stage. Although leaders in both political parties have stated they are in agreement on about 80% of what needs to be done, the House and Senate are not on the same page so there is no “current reform legislation” at this time.
October 2nd, 2009 at 10:15 am
Sheila Says:
October 1st, 2009 at 5:55 pm
For all you people who don’t understand the ERISA laws, all employees of a company get the same health coverage. The boss doesn’t get better coverage than the janitor, sorry to burst your bubble.
Sorry to BURST YOUR BUBBLE shiela but a company can offer more than one level of coverage to its employees. And I never said anything about capping salaries, I said that the government has to oversee the insurance industry because they are not looking out for anybody but their own profits.
Maybe you should read Wendell Potter’s testimony, or CAN you even read?
October 2nd, 2009 at 11:28 am
Sheila you are sure enjoying the anonymity of the internet with your comments. I wonder if you would talk this way to people in person; if so were you one of the people shouting at the town hall meetings? I am so happy for you that you have had NO problems with your insurance coverage, but this is definitely NOT the normal experience. Good for you, but sometimes we have to look outside ourselves and make sacrifices for a bigger social problem. In this case the sacrifice for you may just be considering other people’s point of view and trying to be a little more classy in your online comments.
I am a small business owner AND healthcare provider and I am 100% in support of healthcare AND health insurance reform.
October 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Sorry to burst your bubble Gordon but Wendell Potter is a nut-case. Yes, he worked in the insurance industry, but left under “mysterious” circumstances – but he is now being paid by the Center for Media and Democracy – an avowed liberal organization.
October 2nd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
LEU: And should we all take your word that he’s a “nut case” because he’s a liberal and being “paid” by a liberal organization? Under what authority do you make that claim – a right-wing conservative organization’s smear campaign? Post your source and I guarentee there’s a connection to the insurance industry or the republican party.
October 2nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
“Healthcare is draining us like a vampire along with buying oil from other countries.”
This comment from the thread asks a question that begins to get at the problem. The problem isn’t recognition of the issue, the problem is with the government’s inability to resolve issues! When the government noticed that foreign oil was a ‘problem’ they created the Department of Energy. It’s stated goal was to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. That was 1976 and we were then importing almost 20% of the oil we used. Today, almost 70% of the oil we use is from foreign countries… and the Department of Energy costs us 24 billion dollars a year and has 10’s of thousands of government employees, all who will retire on a government pension.
Big problem. Big government. Creates a big department. Does nothing to fix big problem.
How quickly we forget.
October 2nd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Gordon – I don’t need to post that. You can check it out on your own – that’s called “doing your homework.”
October 2nd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Right LEU – No comment = No source.
October 2nd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Gordy – I was afraid you couldn’t read or understand how to look up anything, but wanted to give you the benefit, but here you go:
http://www.prwatch.org/cmd/bios.php/Wendell_Potter
October 2nd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Lewy: Fail again. Here’s what your link directed me to. A rather glowing summary of the good things Mr. Potter has been up to. Not a word about the supposed “nut case”. Where’s your source? I think you must have been reading about yourself.
Wendell Potter
Wendell Potter has served since May 2009 as CMD’s Senior Fellow on Health Care. After a 20-year career as a corporate public relations executive, last year he left his job as head of communications for one of the nation’s largest health insurers to try his hand at helping socially responsible organizations — including those advocating for meaningful health care reform — achieve their goals.
Based in Philadelphia, Wendell now provides strategic communications counsel and planning services as an independent consultant. He also speaks out on both the need for a fundamental overhaul of the American health care system and on the dangers to American democracy and society of the decline of the media as watchdog, which has contributed to the growing and increasingly unchecked influence of corporate PR.
Before his big switch, Wendell held a variety of positions at CIGNA Corporation over 15 years, serving most recently as head of corporate communications and as the company’s chief corporate spokesman.
Prior to joining CIGNA, Wendell headed communications at Humana Inc., another large for-profit health insurer. Before that he was director of public relations and advertising for The Baptist Health System of East Tennessee. He also has been a partner in an Atlanta public relations firm, a press secretary to a Democratic nominee for governor of Tennessee and as a lobbyist in Washington for the organizers of the 1982 World’s Fair in Knoxville, Tenn. He also served as a member of the public relations and international marketing team for the Fair and traveled to Europe, Africa and South America on country recruitment missions.
Wendell also was a journalist. His first job after college was as a reporter for Scripps-Howard’s afternoon paper in Memphis. He wrote about Memphis businesses and local government before being sent to Nashville to cover the governor’s office and state legislature. Two years later he was promoted to the Scripps-Howard News Bureau in Washington where he covered Congress, the White House and the Supreme Court and wrote a weekly political column.
Wendell is a native of Tennessee and a graduate of the University of Tennessee in Knoxville where he received a B.A. degree in communications and did postgraduate work in journalism and public relations. He holds an APR, which means he is accredited in public relations by the Public Relations Society of America, and is still a proud dues-paying member of the Society of Professional Journalists and the National Press Club in Washington.
October 2nd, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Gordon, You are missing the point. Wendell is working to advance the government healthcare agenda. That makes his opinion neither fair or balanced. The government has proven over and over again to be inept. They can’t run monoploy businesses at a break-even level. Their Community Reinvestment Act destroyed the banking business and now people like Wendell would like us to extend government interference in helthcare to destroy insurance companies. Two things need to happen here to control costs; tort reform/liability limitation so doctors can get back prescribing just what is needed, and the creation of co-ops or other buying groups so individuals can have similar leverage as large corporations to get reasonable rates. Health care cannot be a ‘right’ since for it to be someone’s ‘right’ you must make it someone elses ‘obligation’. When a baby is born, which is he, the one with a right to government provided healthcare, or the one with the lifelong obligation to work and pay for the whole program?
October 2nd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
An interesting note: No one that has identified themselves as a small business owner (like myself) has had anything but disdain for the insurance industry and have ALL been for a public option, or some other sort of REAL competition. Everyone that has been espousing the right wing talking points are…??? Who are these people ? Do they actually have to pay for their own or their employees insurance?
October 2nd, 2009 at 10:24 pm
um Gordon, nowhere in Potter’s (who the heck is he anyway?) diatribe does he mention anything about employers getting better healthcare benefits than their employees. Maybe YOU should learn how to read? And that is only HIS hearsay opinion. One man out of how many employees in how many companies? Not a very big deal. Maybe he had it in for CIGNA. Maybe he got passed over for promotion. Who know? Now if you have hundreds of executives of insurance companies saying the same thing, then maybe I’ll listen. But one man’s opinion is just that.
October 5th, 2009 at 6:15 am
How incredibly heartening to see so many people posting their support for healthcare reform. I too have lived in the UK, and while I accept that the National Health Service could be improved, it was a fantastic service for the amount that it cost me. I paid only 9% of my salary for my National Insurance contribution, with my employer also made a contribution, which covered me for healthcare, unemployment, pension, disability, maternity and sickness benefits. An annual payment of about £100 covered all prescription charges, regardless of what it was. With the innovation and energy that exists in the US, I cannot understand why it is so difficult to come up with an alternative healthcare arrangement that will meet the needs of the population. The current system is BROKEN, except for a tiny elite, and it does our country no good at all to continue with this insanity.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
I find the arguments that healthcare reform equal socialism completely mistaken – I, like Michelle have lived in the UK. The system there is not as simple as it’s detractors like to make out. The UK system provides basic healthcare. There’s nothing to stop anyone there upgrading their benefits by joining a scheme like BUPA an insurance association that adds a higher level of private care for those who wish to pay extra for it. That seems reasonable to me. A basic national system and for those that wish to afford it, a second tier where you can get treated more quickly, and have a higher level of private care. For me the basic level was good enough, but many companies add BUPA as a benefit for their employees. As a small business owner in the US – that’s something I would be happy to do for my employees providing it was affordable.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Meghan: YOU are enjoying the anonymity as everyone on here, with a few exceptions. Are you calling me a liar? I have expressed my opinion and my experience. Perhaps some people (or employers such as yourself) made bad choices in providers. Have you thought of that? I made a good choice each and every time. I’m sorry that you didn’t. Also, are you saying that when people get fed up with politicians lying to them, they are not allowed to shout? What sacrifices are YOU making for your fellow man? No one named Meghan has come forward to help ME or anyone I know. Please let us all in on what social problems YOU have solved. You are a small business owner? Then perhaps it’s just your greed that makes you want to vote for the government to take care of everyone from cradle to grave, so YOU won’t have to pay health insurance premiums any longer and you can make more profits for yourself. Please stop acting like you are altruistic. And, yes, ask anyone I know if I would talk this same way to you in person. Yes, I WOULD.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
LEU: I agree with you 100%.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Joe: I also agree with you 100%.
(Meghan: are you catching the drift here?)
October 5th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Michelle: MY healthcare is NOT broken. Please don’t try to fix it.
If the uninsured people don’t WANT to be insured, that’s their right. You can’t force them. You also have to take into the equation, the people who are rich enough to pay for their medical bills WITHOUT insurance. That is THEIR right. You can’t force them. Now, the poor who can’t afford insurance, already have state insurance (Medicaid). Why do you need another FEDERAL plan for them? This is definitely all smoke and mirrors for more big government control. Don’t let them fool you.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Gary: I agree with you 100%.
See, there are many ideas on the way to make healthcare better without destroying the whole system and giving it up to the big bad government.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Carol, Fred, Shane: All very good opinions and ideas!!!
October 5th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Sheila, if I didn’t know better (and come to think of it, I don’t) – I would think you are just a shill for the insurance companies. Are you sure you own a small business – and pay for your employees healthcare? It really doesn’t sound like it to me – and to most of the other people on this site that identify themselves as small business owners.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
I believe that the one thing everyone here is ignoring is the rationale behind Obama’s push for this. Listening to the voices of small business owners it is clear that health care changes are necessary. Knowing however that Obama’s larger agenda is to enforce some kind of economic and racial ‘justice’, I understand that this bill is just one vehicle for Obama to deliver that ‘justice’. Face it; we’ve elected a 60’s style radical to the white house. Obama IS Rev. Wright in a younger body with the capability to speak in more moderate tones. If you get sucked in by the moderate speech, you will have enabled the radical redefinition of America… and I assure you, the winners in the redefined ‘Obama’s America’ are not going to be small business owners. We are being used. Just look at the way this, and every other bill has been rammed down America’s throat. “No time to read it, just sign here.” None of you got to where you are today by being that gullible.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
And this is where we always end up when a rational discussion is what is needed….
Gary, go back to the political blogs and spout your wingnut theories. I am not going to debate you on them – or comment further on your “just say no” political philosophy.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Gary,
Are you serious? I mean, really? Where is your proof of this? Just because that is your opinion does not make it true. I am sorry that your America is being destroyed but it is also my America and I disagree. Nothing is that is being proposed will force you onto a plan. Of course that is already reality with health insurance. Let me educate you on how it works for my company. We are trying to find the best plan but since we went above our projected use, our old company wanted to raise rates by 38%. One of the reasons we went above our projected use was because of the number of pregnancies (we have a lot of women that work here). We found a plan that will only raise rates by 12%. Now as an employee I have no real choice. It is that plan or find a personal plan. Have you priced those out and what they cover? I have to have insurance since I have young kids. Private insurance will not go away just as public universities did not push out private universities. You talk about ‘justice’ like it is a bad thing.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Sheila: You asked Megan if she thought you were a liar. Well I think you are a liar or you live in a bubble and are deaf dumb and blind to the millions of Americans that either don’t have any health care or have gone bankrupt because their existing insurance policy wont cover their sickness and you just dont care. You use every extreme argument against competition for the insurance industry. If they are so good why would they be so afraid of competition, why would a level playing field be such a threat. You have heard it all we pay more for health insurance than any other country in the world and dont get as much for it, we rank 37th in quality health care and hundreds of people in this country die every day because they dont have adequate health care You just keep raving on like your some sort of guru that knows everthing in truth you know nothing. If your challenged in any way you quote fox or beck or lumbaugh or the lies and distortions of the insurance industry. Its still a free country and freedom of speech prevails even for the dumbest of us.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
If wealth redistribution is the ‘justice’ you seek, not rewarding those who invested their money and time into a business or career, then you voted correctly, and you should keep supporting Obama’s plans.
If you read the health care proposal, then you know that small businesses will pay a progressively higher fee to keep private insurance, effectively eliminating it. The goal of this administration is to get to single payer. Obama has said as much directly in speeches he made as a Senator. There’s a lot more at stake here than insurance.
And get this; half of it’s cost will “be paid out of 500 billion in waste and fraud in the Medicare system.” Do you believe that? If there is 500 billion of recoverable waste and fraud, then how trustworthy is the government to run something like this? We’re talking about the same government!
I suppose there’s one born every minute…. I’m just not going to be one of them. You?
October 5th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Al Simon:
I haven’t ‘quoted’ *anyone* in these posts. Where are you getting your information?
Please tell me why I would lie about my experience. What will that get me?
I have not used any argument for the insurance industry except that if the government would lift the ban on crossing state lines, we all could get quotes from ANY insurance company in the United States. But the government won’t do that? Why is the government protecting insurance companies? I’m not protecting them, the government is. So wouldn’t you suspect another so-called reform bill that still won’t let you cross state lines? Is there any other industry that has this ban against it? I have no idea where you think I am AGAINST competition. I am all FOR it. Please take a reading comprehension class before you respond again. As for paying MORE for health coverage, you get what you pay for. Other countries’ citizens COME HERE for health care because they don’t want to have surgery in THEIR country. It’s in the news all the time. Look it up. Why is that, Al, if they have better care than we do? You stated in an earlier post that “the insurance companies are only in it for the money.” Ha ha ha. Isn’t that what capitalism is about, making money? Isn’t that why you work? to make money? You say “freedom of speech prevails even for the dumbest of us.” Well, I know you are just speaking about yourself, aren’t you? Please go back to school.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
My goodness — amazing the huge gulf that separates the ‘conservative’ from the ‘liberal’ on this issue (and many others). Bottom line is that any rational adult is aware that our healthcare delivery system is seriously flawed. A good first step would be to encourage doctors to promote wellness, not reward them for doing unnecessary tests and prescribing pills. Too many insurers pay the providers based on how many procedures they perform or prescriptions they write. Tort reform is absolutely critical to any repair of the system — but since so many politicians are lawyers, tort reform is difficult to accomplish. Congress (and all politicians) should have to use the same health insurance providers and plans as their constituents. Whilte it’s true that everyone in my company has the same options, the company pays the entire premium for the top managers while the rest of us get very little help with our premiums (a family premium costs the employee $811.68 per month; the top people pay nothing).
It’s a very difficult problem and I don’t profess to know how to fix it, but I do know it needs to be fixed. I say we try some of the ideas being proposed and if they don’t work, keep tweaking until we find what does work. Waiting for the ‘perfect solution’ means things will continue to deteriorate and we’ll never have meaningful reform.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I agree with Randy that the health care system is broken and need to be fixed. What worries me is the approach of just doing something and then plan on fixing it later. If the health care plan is done poorly it could be a disaster. If the politicians are not willing to stand up to the insurance companies and other interest groups now, what makes us think they will do so at a later date? We need to stay focussed on getting the right bill passed and not let the politicians take the easy way out.
October 7th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
We have to outspend the Insurance Companies, if we want to get meaningful health reform, period. The money whores who run our government are simply going to rubber-stamp the new laws that the Insurance Companies are writing for them. We definitely get the best government money can buy. If we want good government and good law, we have to buy it! I propose we set up a foundation and everyone send them a dollar or ten, the foundation then greases the right palms and then we get health reform. Sniveling and whining won’t get us real health reform, just like any good laws done in the past, we have to bring incredible shame onto the opposition and lots of money to get things done. Outspend the Insurance Companies!
October 7th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
I am still miffed as to why we continue debating all the injustices and mal practices and unfair inequities and the multitude of flaws that now exsist. It isn’t a debate–we all know the problems are many and it has to be fixed. The big question is how, by who and when. To continue blaming who shoot John serves no purpose, we need to decide who to back to get it fixed.
Government certainly has a major role to play and they (if honest) would realize many of the exsisting problems are a result of their interference and over regulation. More government and more regulation isn’t going to solve our delimma. Insurance and private enterprise are also culpable of greed and manipulating and unfair practices and need to shoulder their fair share of the blame. So everyone is at fault and they have no choice but to help save the system.
Nothing is all bad or all good. We live in a gray area and will not please all the people or displease all the people, the trick is to please the majority and not tick off the minority. Injustice and inequities will surely occur no matter how hard we work to prevent it. No where in the world is there a perfect utopia in government or in government run programs. We are forced to take the good with the bad, so how do we procede???
From my perspective a government take over, government control, government run, government funded, and government regulated position on anything will lead to a worse condition than we presently have. It is my contention that the government should monitor, over see, supply leadership, offer monetary and professional help, police any system set in place and create the atomsphere for co-operation between private enterprise and its self. That being said all parties should begin to reform a healthcare system from the position that government is not the cure all or the manager, but the leader. That is why we put those politicians in there to lead not control. Over simplification, certainly is. Niave thinking, certainly is. Practical, no way. Difficult, you bet. Impossible, not necessarily. My bet is if we could get on the same page in large numbers we could make it great for all. We will see!
October 8th, 2009 at 5:50 am
To be honest, I don’t really care about the people for whom the current system “works” (like Sheila). I am sure that if they are so lucky, so talented, so wise or so wealthy, that they will find some means of working whatever new system is created too.
The lack of access to basic healthcare is crippling the country, with minor ailments turned into chronic disability because of the cost of healthcare. I want as many of my fellow citizens to be well and productive as possible, for the benefit of the country as a whole.
I think that having a tiered system might work (like we already have in many respects), but the main difference being that everyone would have affordable access to a basic level of healthcare. In the UK, healthcare is rationed on medical grounds. People needing non-emergency treatment (like varicose veins surgery or mole removal) do not get priority over those needing prompt treatment for their conditions – unless they pay for private treatment, when they can get treatment quite quickly. There are standards set to ensure that people don’t wait forever for treatment, constantly pushed to the back of the waiting list.
Those who feel they need always to have red-carpet treatment can pay for it, while those who are content to wait awhile (but not indefinitely) for care should be able to get a cheaper option. But ensuring that everyone, even with pre-existing conditions, contributes to a healthcare system is essential. There should be no option about it. Drivers are required to have car insurance, and everyone should have health insurance, or able to prove that they have a dedicated savings account to pay for health services. Those who do pay for cover should no longer have to bear the costs through increased premiums to cover the costs of those who don’t have insurance and find they are unable to pay for the treatment they need.
Unless we can turn into a heartless nation that can refuse treatment to those who cannot prove they are able to pay for it.
October 8th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Scott: RE: top managers getting their premiums paid. Top managers also make more money than the regular employee. what does that prove? You are compensated for your skills. If that involves getting free health insurance for your family, then that is what the market will bear. go to college, get a degree, and be the top manager. You can’t force companies to give everyone exactly the same pay. then why would anyone go to college to learn more??? Come on, get real. Some companies give their executives a company car. Does that mean every employee should get a company car? Puhlease.
October 8th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Michelle: How is that mandated auto insurance working for you? Do you know how many drivers (usually illegal aliens) DON’T have car insurance but still cause accidents?? Supposedly, they get fined but rarely do they pay. they are never jailed. How do you enforce it? How will you enforce mandatory health insurance? What these jamokes are proposing is $3,000 fine and jail time. Are you kidding me? If you can’t afford the premium, how will you afford the fine? No one is being killed or injured by not having health insurance. You can’t force someone to buy it. It’s insane. How many waitress and bartender jobs or even convenience store jobs do not pay for employee health insurance–BECAUSE they can’t afford it either. So you’re going to put a company out of business and put a single mother in jail????? INSANE. How about taking the ban off crossing state lines to comparatively buy health insurance??? That makes more sense. Also, if 90% of Americans are satisfied with their health insurance, why do YOU want to impose more rules, more mandates, fines, and jail time because of the 10% who by their bad life and career choices don’t have it??? Am I supposed to pick up the slack? I don’t think so. Your logic is faulty, Michelle.
October 8th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
A survey of a miniscule percenatge of Americam companies done by a unnamed source is a gross disservice to readers. My guess is more right wing republican propoganda and lies funded by phrama and the insurance industry. As a leader in a publically traded corporation I can tell you I am wholeheartedly behind Obama. It is Congress that that is bought and paid for by the above mentioned industries that frustrates me.
October 8th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Just a few comments based on Fred, Michelle and Sheila’s responses.
Fred, you raise legitimate questions on what government’s role should be. It could be all the way from a completely government system, as with Medicare and the Canadian system, to a total free enterprise system as I understand Switzerland has. Personally I lean towards the free enterprise system but with several qualifications. If we are to mandate another 45 million customers for the insurance companies we need to provide some requirements as to what they will provide. To me, basic health care needs, including preventative health care must be covered, where face lifts and viagra, etc., may be optional items that can be added for a few dollars more. Another buyer beware, unregulated program like the drug coverage program would be a disaster. As for the government providing a public option to compete with the insurance companies, I think it would be a good idea, but may not be possible now.
Michelle, I think your tiered approach is a great idea.
Sheila, you must have a heart of stone. Having said that, you bring up a couple of good points. How will the government enforce their mandatory coverage? Also, why do we allow states to create barriers to insurance companies crossing state lines? My limited experience is that these state regulations are one means that the insurance companies have found to limit competition, and therefore increase profits, but how does the proposed legislation address this issue? We need to know.
The good thing is that we are finally starting to talk about problems and solutions. A great step forward.
October 8th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Scott, it’s already been proven that the Americans that don’t have insurance are mostly people who don’t want to pay insurance premiums and have the money to pay for their healthcare directly. What is wrong with that? As for people who don’t have it because they are poor. Come on, wake up, every state has some form of Medicaid for those people. Just because they choose not to join doesn’t mean OUR healthcare plans need to be changed and/or we don’t need to force them to pay a penalty or go to jail for it! That’s ridiculous. Also, I believe that the restriction on not being able to buy insurance across state lines is a FEDERAL one (but I could be wrong). Regardless, their is NO provision for solving that little problem in any of the proposed bills, Scott.
Also there is NO heart of stone. ALL people can go to a hospital to get treated. They CANNOT be refused treatment. That’s already a law. So that myth is busted right there. Everything you hear about health-care reform is a bunch of hype!!!! I don’t believe those people who say they have been refused healthcare service. If you are paying a premium on an individual policy, wouldn’t you check to see what is and isn’t covered before you buy that insurance? Don’t tell me you would wait until you were sick to find out what your insurance company will pay for. I don’t believe you.
Just say NO to any so-called healthcare reform bills being proffered by politicians. LESS government, not more.
October 9th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
As Sheila says– Less government, not more should be our motto. I don’t say that to cut out government involvement, but to have a starting point. We all know that a government drafted bill will not be just about the healthcare. They will intertwine so many tricks, taxes, departments, control, regulations, political boondoogle, programs and totally unrelated baggage to a bill so that healthcare is only a small increment of the total. Read what is already being considered. It is rediculous, and they are attempting to sneak in more without anyone having an opportunity to read it. Pass it don’t bother to read it. What kind of insanity is that. Politcians should be held accountable and made to read anything they are going to vote on. I don’t care if they are liberal or conservative. If they are not willing to do that, they should be removed from their office for derlict of duty. For what other reason do we put them in office , except to learn and make informed decisions. They have a sworn duty!!! Lets see to it that they abide by it.
We want a pure program about healthcare written by all parties and public involvement. It is suppose to be all encompassing so lets have all in the mix. Government, insurance, hospitals, Doctors!!!, citizens, business leaders, and whoever needs to be represented. Let us all help in the draft to produce a healthcare program, not just a handful of self serving bureaucrats who won’t even read the final writing. We better get cracking as they are about to shove a whole lot of garbage down our throats in the next week or two. Lets make ourselves heard as patriots and concerned citizens not as left right or center, but as people not numbers. Live breathing people that this program is meant to serve — or is it!!!!
October 10th, 2009 at 4:14 am
I really don’t understand “Less government, not more” – as someone who grew up in a European democracy and benefitted greatly from a welfare state that included a proper public education to college level, and a perfectly adequate public health system, I feel that Americans, and specifically Republicans enjoy shooting themselves in their collective feet, because they believe in the crass “Less Government” mantra. I put this down to lack of contact with the world beyond the US. Not only is America less “free” than a typical European democracy, it also is less “livable”a place to enjoy one’s existence. The Far Right has ruled America for too long to the detriment of it’s populance, it’s time to work together and treat each other as equals, instead of the greed driven plutocracy that currently rules.
October 10th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Tom McPhillips: If you don’t like America, why are you here? Why aren’t you in your Utopian European country (of course you don’t say what country, because you know we’ll see that you’re lying)??? Please go back where you came from and leave us to live our lives the way WE want to live. No one is telling YOU what to do in YOUR country, are they? That’s why we have different countries with different laws, rules, and ways of life–to accommodate everyone’s right to live the way they want to live. Tell us what country you’re from, Tom, so we can give you OUR opinion of YOUR country. Thanks for the transparency.
October 10th, 2009 at 11:48 am
I love America, America is my country. I enjoy working here, I’ve grown my family and my business here , and feel I’ve done my entrepreneurial best in creating jobs and remaining successful in a difficult economy. I came from the UK, and just like every other country it has plenty of problems and some successes. If you want to argue that preserving the status quo is what constitutes being an American, that’s fine. If you’re interested in improving, maintaining and even resuscitating the average American’s quality of life it might help to listen to some new ideas, even ideas which didn’t originate in America. Your reaction unfortunately precludes that. Healthcare reform is vital to the continued well being of American small businesses, the basic dynamo of any, and especially the US, economy. Ultimately, Americans are great problem solvers, and whether the inspiration for the solution comes from Europe, the Far East or even from that country to the north on our continent, or from the US itself, is of no consequence, what matters is that we find not only a solution but the right solution.
October 10th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Sheila, Please go away. You and your group offer NOTHING except inane / insane right wing talking poiints. That is why we are having such a hard time getting good laws passed.
It is amazing that you are bringing up the old “America, Love it or Leave it” crap. Especially since you and your leaders are now the only ones in the world agreeing with the Taliban and Hamas in criticizing our president for getting the Nobel prize.
Tom McPhillips and others are offering intelligent and thoughtful ideas and responses – even when they disagree. You are adding nothing beneficial to this conversation.
October 11th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Tom: There is nothing wrong with our health insurance that price comparison won’t solve. Having the government in charge of our healthcare is a losing proposition. Taking $5 billion AWAY from Medicare (a government insurance agency, by the way) and using it for ANOTHER government health agency is NOT a solution!!! Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul never works. So Tom, you’re saying whenever there is a problem in your small business, you look to the government to take over half of it??? I work for a small business and they know how to do it right. We make a profit and then some EVERY year and their health insurance is great. By the way, we are UNDER 35 employees, so don’t talk to me about how small business needs a government handout. If YOU can’t manage your small business, don’t look to ME to pay for it (through my taxes). Find out what YOU’RE doing wrong and fix it.
October 11th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
John Hoats: WHAT is MY group? I am me, alone, independent thinker. “having a hard time getting good laws passed?” Oh, you mean when the Democrats refused to pass a good law regulating the banks? (See Barney Franks opinions.) Then the bailouts happened and that STILL didn’t fix anything. You mean when Republicans and Independents tried to pass tort reform and the Democrats voted no? You mean when Republicans and Independents voted to let people comparison shop across state lines for health insurance and the Democrats voted no? You mean THOSE kind of good laws?
So far, NO ONE has delineated what exactly Obamadolf has done to deserve the PEACE prize except give a bunch of flowery speeches in which he denigrates America. He also wants to give the Taliban a voice in the Afghanistan government. Who is he to be so arrogant anyway? He just got done saying that America is not going to be dictating things to other countries and then he turns around and starts dictating to other countries, both Iran and Afghanistan!!
What country are YOU from, John Hoats?
October 11th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Fred Ludwig: I agree. And why aren’t Tom and John disagreeing with you also, not just me? Hmm.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Thank you Sheila for saying what many of us were thinking to Tom and John. Tom, we don’t want to be a semi-socialist has-been nation like the UK, who has had their day in the sun and is now content to just fade out of a position of influence. As an observer, it appears that football and drinking are all the UK has left. They have also achieved something important with their health care system, they have created the world’s third largest group of any kind with the number of employees who work for the UK Health Care system. Over 1.2 million employees to administrate the plan! And that’s for a relatively small country. Can you imagine how large that group will be in the US if we don’t stop this.
And John, I don’t even know what to say to you. You think the Nobel Peace Prize was deserved by a man who has achieved nothing? (except pull off one of the great election scams ever!) The Nobel Prize USED to be given to people for their accomplishments. It has now been cheepened by being a political award given by libtards to other libtards. Now we aren’t ever going to agree, but you ought to listen more. Sheila’s points are sound. Her thinking is clear. And she articulates her points well. You seem to be the one on partisan attack. (which is par for the course we have discovered) Our forefathers put together a plan for the United States that has made it the most successful social experiment in the history of the world. We are simply trying to retain the simple elegance of that original plan. If you want to experiment in socialism, there are plenty of places in the world that would welcome that. I suggest you consider that many who you describe like Shiela as being from “her group” are just people who respect our constitution and the original ideals that have made America the best place in the world to live.
October 12th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Obviously, the “small business owners” on this blog are inept financial planners and money managers and want the ‘free ride’ from the government so THEY don’t have to pay their employees’ premiums on health insurance.
By the way, whichever one of you said it, I have never stated that I owned a small business. I have only stated that I work for one. And we are happy with our insurance, thank you very much. The owners are very budget-savvy and only the strong survive. If you guys can’t manager your business, then you deserve to close your doors. Let someone else take your place who knows what they are doing.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
To Sheila, Gary Layton and the few other shills for the insurance companies. You obviously live in a world of your own to claim that there is nothing wrong with health care in America and to claim that those of us own small businesses and work 60 and 70 hours a week to feed our employees and families are inept and are looking for a free ride from government is so ridiculous as to question your real motivation for constantly nitpicking, and coming up with right wing talking points, for the past few weeks on this one sight. The insurance companies announced today that they will not support the changes they previously agreed with and worked on and negotiated these many months, what a surprise. After spending hundreds of millions of dollars to lobby for the status quo there now against change. What a surprise. Sheila you claim you work for a small business, it sounds like you work for the best managed business in the country. How come you have so much time to spend on this sight making excuses for the insurance companies. there is no question we need health care reform and the only way to get reform is with a public option. If a public option means government health care bring it on.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
If you think that sending our money to Nancy Pelosi, Charlie Rangel, Chris Dodd, Barney Franks, Harry Reid and the others is a way to make things better for you, then I say go for it! I just don’t see how any rational, supposedly intelligent human beings can listen to these inept people’s planning process and believe that something good can come of it. That hasn’t been the case with almost everything they have done in the past, and to expect it to be different this time is absurd. I don’t work for an insurance company, but I’ve lived long enough to observe what goes on around me, and around me, the government may mean well, but they rarely accomplish that.
They meant well with the CRA, Community Reinvestment Act, and ended up busting the banks and almost crashing the whole economy. Giving them the ‘keys’ to drive the health insurance industry into the same wall is insane.
Your opinion is just that, your opinion, and you are entitled to it. (as Sheila and I are entitled to ours) I am happy with my health care and I prefer not to have the government meddle unless they are willing to cut off treatment to illegals in hospitals with my money, and unless they are willing to reform medical malpractice lawsuits. They aren’t because they haven’t been honest with you about their intentions.
October 12th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Al Simon: You keep saying I’m working for THE insurance companies. How can I when I’ve already told you I work for a small business? Do you think my one little voice is going to make THE insurance companies give me a kickback?? You are so funny.
And the word is spelled ’site.’ I usually go online at lunchtime or in the morning or evening before and after work. Sometimes I take a break and insert my comments. How about you, Mr. Small Business Owner, who is also online as much as I or the others are with your little disparaging remarks when you should be paying more attention to your problems with your budget and comparison shopping for a good insurance company. Oh, that’s right. The Democrats won’t ALLOW us to comparison shop across state lines. Hmph.
Why do you call coming up with a REAL solution instead of a government welfare solution, ‘right wing’? Because you KNOW that government welfare is socialism which is left wing extremism which is what YOU want. Well, 85-90% of real Americans do NOT want socialism; we want and like good ole capitalism and we also want and like the government to butt out of our private lives and business. The Federal government Constitutionally is only supposed to protect our borders, NOT mandate health insurance coverage. Do you get that, yet, Al, baby?
October 12th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
And Al, notice it is AFTER 5:00 – quitting time. OK?
October 12th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Gary, I think Al is very comfortable with paying for Peloser’s private jet and bodyguards, don’t you? And also paying for Obamadolf and his family to fly all over the world in less than a year, taking how many vacations?? and paying with taxpayer money (don’t even go there) $35,000 for each of two houses per week for his last little vacation. Most people don’t even MAKE $35,000 per YEAR, but we are paying for the ‘royal’ family’s vacation (one of many) and then these guys CRY about paying for their employee’s health insurance and CRY because they have to work 60 and 70 hours a week to do it. Why don’t they CRY to the greedy, corrupt individuals in office and tell them WE WON’T TAKE IT ANY MORE!!!!!
October 12th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Wow, congratulations Sheila and Gary, you got all of Rush’s talking points in in one day. Unfortunately it does little to shed any light on the problems we have with health care. Your employer provides you with health insurance, as I do mine. That doesn’t change the fact that this country is spending an exorbitant amount on health care, which puts us at a competetive disacvantage against almost any other developed country in the world. The system is broken and needs to be fixed. Unfortunately so many of you and your brethern are so fixated on the fact that it is a Democratic proposal that you can neither contribute to understanding the problem or creating solutions. Too bad, but thank goodness it will get done without you.
October 12th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
I am still bewidered as to why we continue to call this present proposed bill “healthcare”. Who wrote this bill, health care experts, doctors, hospitals, nurses, care givers of anykind? Not that I know of! It was written by slick attornys, government paid employees, buaracrates, and one sided party politians. We are fools to believe that this bill has anything to do with health care no matter what your politics are.
Has anybody on this blog read the bill? We keep jumping down each others throats about how uninformed each one is. My guess is there are a bunch of intellegent people here, many points of good thinking but about something that isn’t even relevant. This is not about insurance, quality health care, cost control, right or left wing thinking, this is about a bunch of crap jammed into a bill to make the government more money under the guiess of “health care”. I have contacts that have read major portions of this boondoogle and they suggest that it is filled with the expansion of government, dozens of new agencies, hidden taxes, and deception. Not many have the ability to sort it out as it is so conveluted. If this doesn’t register with you as being a problem you are not paying attention. Where is the health benefits? Why isn’t it filled with health care details, health delivery, preventive health care, direct health care costs, direct health care future expensies, and etc., etc..
We should have a pure bill about health, not all the other junk. Everyone should participate, doctors, health care practioners, hospitals, the average Joe. nurses, and yes, health insurance people. It should be drafted so it is readable for all to understand, no tricks. Government should not be in control as they have demonstrated the mess they are capable of making. I could go on about making the government accountable, but that is for another time, for now we need to force the issue that we want pure accountable direct focused plans to make the cost of our health care realistic for now and into the future. Health care, health care — not government expansion.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Sheila, shut up. No one is interested in listening to you constantly editorialize the half truths Fox spews all day long. Your “facts” are wrong consistently. People here are trying to have a discussion and you are being hateful and ignorant.
“Obamadolf”? Really? Why don’t you just go dance around with your other assault weapon wearing friends and call for more civil liberties as you promote bills that take them away. I’m sure you were one of the people cheering when Chicago didn’t get the Olympic bid. See anyone can make up inflammatory hate based arguments but it makes them sound stupid and is completely unproductive.
Wanting bad things to happen to your country to promote personal agendas against a group of people is anti-democratic at best not pro-capitalism.
Your declamation shows how truly ignorant you are and exactly why the conservatives are impossible to work with. No concessions would be good enough because all you want are all initiatives brought forth by this administration to fail. It doesn’t matter how many people it would help and even if it had no effect on you.
Spew your anti-America hate somewhere else. I’m tired of reading it.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Some of you people are confusing identification of a poorly thought out plan, and opposition to progress.
When a president encourages our representitives to rush through and pass over 1,000 pages of legislation without reading it before they leave for summer vacation, it is irresponsible. When he comes back and implores passage of a bill that is ill defined, confusing, and contradicts itself, he loses the trust of many of us. When real problems exist that are completely ignore in over 1,000 pages of legislation (tort reform), then many of us question whether the president even has a grip on the problem.
Nobody denies that the rapid rise of the cost of providing, and the cost of owning a health insurance policy is a problem. But to accept that 39 million more are to be covered, and much of that additional cost will be paid for out of Medicare fraud and waste is ludicris. Medicare… the program where they claim the funds are coming from is their program! If they can’t run that, why would you believe that they can help you here? What kind of businessman are you if you would keep going back to the same supplier after they have identified their incompentence?
And the electioneering claim that $2,500 per person was to be ‘gained back’ through automation of medical records is more of the same. You’ve probably automated customer records at some point in your business. Tell me; is that when your profits went through the roof? No, that just makes the day-to-day administration a little bit better.
So my question is this; if none of the individual points supporting the economics of this proposal are sound, how sound can the entire proposal be?
October 13th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Patrick Adkins your right on we need a new health care system and the republicans and insurance companies have been fighting reform for over 50 years. Its the same kind of thinking that fought social security and medicare. Our friends sheila and gary layton talk about a rushed, confused bill that congress is debating. Its the same talking points over and over again. Don’t trust government, dont trust the democrats, dont trust anyone except the insurance companies. The time for change has come, the time to tell the insurance companies no more, the time to tell fox and lumbaugh and beck and all the rest of the right wing kooks no more, the time for reform is now and the most important piece of reform is THE PUBLIC OPTION.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Patrick Adkins — thank you for saying what so many of us have been thinking for two weeks now. Sheila’s poison is getting more and more difficult to take.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Gary – you’re right. Al and the rest of the idiot democRATS just don’t understand this issue. It’s not about health care – it’s about CONTROL – and the democRATS are trying to socialize 1/6 of the economy and buy votes. Al – why should we trust government? Name one thing they have ever done better than the private sector (beyond their charter of defense, etc.) It’s government’s fault health care is where it is because of the mandates required, and the tort provisions, etc. which drive up costs. There is nothing wrong with healthcare in the US – there is something wrong with the payment of healthcare and most of it is the government’s fault.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Maybe you shouldn’t be using social security and Medicare as your examples. That’s EXACTLY why we shouldn’t do this. Social Security is on its way to insolvency. Medicare, by their own admission, has 500 billion dollars of fraud and waste. People on Medicare can’t find doctors who will accept Medicare. If bringing us all down to the lowest common denominator is your goal, then, national health care is the best path.
This is also not about Democrats and Republicans. It is a discussion of whether you believe that the federal government is a capable administrator of our single most important individual asset, our health. I don’t think they are.
October 13th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Gary, if you take your argument to it’s logical conclusion you are saying we should abandon Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Is that what you are advocating? It may have worked in the 1800s, but I don’t think that is where we want to be as a country now. It’s interesting, we used to claim to have the best form of government in the world, and now we have no confidence that we can even do what virtually every other developed country in the world has done. Our confidence in the insurance companies is so great and our confidence in our government is so small. Maybe it’s because our government depends on us the citizens making informed decisions, and is all we want to do is sit around and call each other names. Does not bode well for our future.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Poison? Hmmm.
The truth is hard to swallow, when you’ve been wallowing in lies and deceit. How much is Obamadolf paying you 3 guys? Not one of you that are FOR the public option has stated any details at all. You guys are the ones calling ME names because of my opinion. (By the way, politicians are fair game.) We’ve all brought up the disadvantages and mandates that can’t be paid for in these many and varied bills, of which even Baucus is saying will be changed as soon as it is voted on AFTER it has been voted on. Do you get it? They put up one version, it gets voted on, then they substitute with another version. The old bait and switch. Where are all your details of cost reduction, hm? As far as who is stalling who, the Republicans have brought bills in front of the Congress for tort reform and allowing peopke to purchase insurance across state lines where we can comparison shop and who is voting against these REFORMS??? Democrats. Admit it.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Patrick??? I don’t watch television except for movies, let alone Fox News, which I think anyway is one of the more UNbiased news sources from what I’ve seen quoted.
I believe it’s you who is the HATER.
A) I don’t keep a gun in my house, but I reserve the right to have one if I change my mind.
B) I don’t even ‘hate’ Obamadolf. I just believe he is following in the footsteps of Adolf Hitler, hence my nickname for him. Please read your history for all the similarities.
C) Why are YOU being inciteful and hateful by telling me to shut up? Just because you don’t like my views? I haven’t told anyone to shut up on this blog, but you have. Who is the hater?
D) Please tell me what facts of mine are wrong. Please be specific. Generalities really don’t prove a darn thing.
E) Anti-democratice?? This country is not a democracy, it is a republic. Again, please check your history books. Yes, I AM pro-capitalist, NOT socialist as is anyone who supports Obamadolf’s policies and practices. America is NOT and WILL NOT become a socialist nation, regardless of how a few of you feel. If you really like socialism, please move to China or Cuba or North Korea. I’m sure you’ll enjoy all your “freedoms” there.
F) Please, please tell me what “bad things” I want to happen to this country. I think you’re confusing me with the Left and Obamadolf, who has been apologizing for America for a long time now.
G) “because all you want are all initiatives brought forth by this administration to fail. It doesn’t matter how many people it would help…” How are those bailouts and stimulous plans working out for you? Bankruptcies after bailouts…companies still closing…jobs still being lost in the millions…unemployment at its highest…Please tell me what initiatives Obamadolf has pushed through have worked out so far? He’s been in office almost 10 months now. How much longer before we’re ALL bankrupt??
Please explain it all to me, Patrick, since you say YOU have all the answers.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Sheila said: “It’s already been proven that the Americans that don’t have insurance are mostly people who don’t want to pay insurance premiums and have the money to pay for their healthcare directly. What is wrong with that? As for people who don’t have it because they are poor. Come on, wake up, every state has some form of Medicaid for those people. Just because they choose not to join doesn’t mean OUR healthcare plans need to be changed and/or we don’t need to force them to pay a penalty or go to jail for it! ”
I would like to question what evidence she has to support her assertion that most Americans without insurance do so out of CHOICE, because they have the money to pay for their healthcare directly.
I would also question her assertion that those who don’t have it because they are poor have the option of Medicaid for their healthcare services.
She clearly has not grasped the difficulties that ordinary working people have with ensuring that they and their families have health coverage. It is not because they choose not to have it, but because it is unaffordable and they earn too much to be able to qualify for Medicaid.
She does not understand that having a right to care at HOSPITAL is not adequate. Why should people have to wait until they are in a health crisis to be able to obtain medical care? Why should they have to leave their perfectly treatable conditions untreated until they become a serious threat?
We need affordable, ordinary care that can support our country’s health and well-being – not just catastrophic emergency care.
She is about the only person I have seen who is utterly content with the current system. She is clearly an out-lier in terms of her experience of healthcare (or maybe that is an out-liar).
October 14th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Sheila I have chosen not to comment because I don’t think it is productive to argue with people who are so far gone as you are, you are obviously more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing and could benefit from some anger management classes. However, I draw the line with your comparisons to Hitler. This is so small minded, mean spirited, hurtful and ignorant. To belittle the Holocaust is unforgiveable. If you knew anything about what people went through, families being ripped apart, murder, rape, torture… something is wrong with you if you are minimizing this. It totally distorts and disrespects the political arena and productive discussion as well. Most liberals refrained from comparing Bush to Hitler for this reason, and it is interesting that his approval of torture, limits on civil liberties, and treatment of minorities would be much closer to an appropriate comparison than a biracial liberal politician, but then again, that would require that you think about what you are saying and not just repeat what you have read in Glenn Beck’s books.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Sheila,
Thank You for another bucket of crazy. I have never claimed to have any answers and have only posted two comments. The latter only pointing out how ignorant your ramblings make you sound but you didn’t even get that. I would, like other have, try to point out your inaccuracies but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Enjoy the world you have created in your own mind. Your statements continually make you sound like a lunatic. I hope everyone else can ignore your future post as I will be doing so constructive conversation can continue.
OK I can’t resist just this one. How dare you minimize the suffering millions have undergone because of the mass genocide caused by Adolf Hitler. If you don’t see how daft it is to compare the worst genocide in history by a narcissistic, ego maniacal, Aryan racist to Obama’s liberal health care reform then you must truly be the most feeble minded person I have ever had the displeasure of talking to.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Patrick, Patrick: obviously, you just don’t get it. Obamadolf is STARTING out just like Hitler did. I’m not ‘minimmizing’ anything. I’m warning YOU that if he is allowed to continue, then he will get just as much power as Hitler did BECAUSE no one believed what Hitler was really going to do. omg.
‘in history by a narcissistic, ego maniacal, Aryan racist ‘ just substitute the word ‘black’ for ‘Aryan’ and you have Obamadolf. Read his book and you’ll see how racist he is. Actually, come to think of it, Obamadolf is only 1/8 black, he is mostly white (on his mother’s side) and 3/8 Arabian (white) on his father’s side. Look it up.
You can’t give me any answers because you don’t have any. There are others on this blog that have agreed with me, yet you don’t mention them at all. Why?
October 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Michelle: Please prove to ME where you get your information that so many DO NOT have healthcare. The street runs both ways, doesn’t it?
I’ve had insurance at every single job I’ve had. don’t know what kind of people you are talking about. If they are in the service industry (waitress, bartender), they are definitely eligible for Medicaid. I know people who make the same money as I do and they are still eligible for a medical card from the state if their employer doesn’t offer insurance. Where do YOU get your information from?
The “evidence” supporting the fact of rich Americans not having an insurance plan has been in all the newspapers. What planet are you on?
As far as your connections to people who are dissatisfied with their health care coverage, I’m sorry that you don’t know very many people. Whoever I talk to about it, doesn’t want the government intruding in their health care. WE ARE ALL SATISFIED. Maybe the government needs to root out all that fraud Obamadolf is talking about in Medicare before they try to shove some other plan down our throat. You DO know that the Federal Government runs Medicare, right? Clean your own house first before you start talking about someone else’s.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Also, how about EVERY government employee giving up their Cadillac insurance coverage and going on their state’s Medicaid plan? THEN that will prove that the government’s plan is just as good. Did you know that they have UNLIMITED coverage? There is no maximum. They have 24/7 coverage with whatever provider they want to use. Let’s start with Obamadolf and start working down through the senators and representatives giving up their PRESTIGE insurance plans before they start to shove down our throats their “public option.” Obamadolf PROMISED in his campaign rhetoric that every American would be able to join THEIR prestigious plan. I don’t see any of that in any of these proffered health care bills. Where is it? Instead of writing up thousand page plans, just say it in a few words. “All Americans can have the same coverage as their senators.” One sentence on one page. Now THAT would be a law that would pass quickly, wouldn’t it? Get your heads out of the sand.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
“To belittle the Holocaust is unforgiveable. If you knew anything about what people went through, families being ripped apart, murder, rape, torture… something is wrong with you if you are minimizing this.”
Because I compare Obama to Hitler, I am NOT belittling anything. You just like to twist words around to suit yourself. I know EXACTLY what went on over there. Have you watched any of the old movies, real factual movies, documentaries in 8mm film, that I have???? I’ve seen it. I know what happened there. That is why I want to stop it before it happens here. That is NOT belittling it, that is WARNING people that the same thing can happen here when you stick your head in the sand.
Obviously, if you think that my comments reflect Glenn Beck’s comments in his books must show that YOU have read his books. Because I haven’t read ANY of his books, my comments are my own. Perhaps Glenn Beck reads MY opinions on various blogs and is copying ME.
Why don’t you read Obamadolf’s books and his wife’s thesis paper, which will show you how racist they both are?
Also, as far as healthcare sympathy from the Obamas, try looking into Michelle’s tenure at the University of Chicago Medical Center and the patient-dumping plan she put in place. The American College of Emergency Physicians blasted her and their advisor Axelrod for their ‘grand’ plan of cherry-picking wealthy patients over poor ones. Her plan sent one woman’s son to Cook County hospital after being ravaged by a pit bull. Michelle’s hospital gave him a pain killer and the boot. Michelle’s hospital is a non-profit and receives many tax breaks in exchange for treating charity cases for free. So with Michelle’s plan in place, they keep the tax dollars and push the poor black boy out the door. THERE IS A FACT for you to think about. Check the Chicago Tribune and all the other Chicago news outlets and you will find the story.
So much for how the Obamas ‘care’ about people without insurance. Open up your eyes. It’s all about the money and the power.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Sheila:
BYE BYE have a great fantasy life.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
It seems to me that every person has a vision fixed in their mind about politics. We make it about personalities when in reality it is about government. When we believe that one individual holding the office of president is responseable for all that transpires is just plain stupid. One man or woman can not possibly know all that is going on. They can only express their opinions register their philosphy and direct what is important to them in a limited capacity. They are given far to much credit for making things happen.
Take any president as they get into office. They immediately begin to surround themselves with people of like thinking. When they have ideas they want implimented everyone around them leap into action and get the wheels turning. Some things gain momentum and succeed and some stall, but the president goes merrily along getting his daily briefings and reassuing the public that he is satisfying their wishes and for those of like thinking he is. The government, president after president continues to function irregardless of the right or wrong of any programs, laws or direction instituted by the party in charge. And so it goes, we argue and insult one another getting more and more polarized by our views. We seldom if ever change each others vision to, why can’t you see it my way. In the end the government grows and grows and grows until we have a self feeding giant out of control and incapable of running any meaningful program. You can’t get a simple direct bill on any subject that it isn’t a monster of governmet gobbley goop all tied together to satisfy the giants feeding. It doesn’t matter whose president or what party as they are all pretty much the same. GIANT FEEDERS!
We once had a meaningful constitution designed by some very smart people trying to prevent that giant from getting out of hand. It worked for along time, but somewhere along the way, we the people lost sight of the idea that we are in charge, not the government. Our founders knew that any government that could get to big could frighten people and create tryanny, but when the government was afraid of the people we could create liberty. I choose liberty. Think about it.
October 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Mr. Ludwig,
You are the most poignant voice I’ve heard to date on this venue.
Thanks
November 13th, 2009 at 7:11 am
I understand the fear of a government that is out of control, but I equally fear a market that is not in balance either. I do not see it as unreasonable to redress the appalling imbalance that has resulted in healthcare, to the detriment of individuals but also to the country as a whole.
We need to have some control over the incessant profiteering that is feeding insurance companies and healthcare corporate interests, so that we can have a healthy, productive population. The huge social divide that is being created, with only the incredibly fortunate or utterly wealthy being able to have access to healthcare and the developing underclass of those who cannot get healthcare, is undermining the wellbeing of our country.