A new study insists that Obama-style healthcare reform will benefit small and midsize businesses.
The study — out of MIT conducted for the Small Business Majority, a nonprofit healthcare advocacy group — was done against the backdrop of data indicating that small businesses in the United States at one time were major providers of health coverage: 67% offered coverage to employees in 1995, compared to 38% in 2008.
Here are the conclusions of the study — and apparent benefits for small businesses under healthcare reform:
- Reduced costs. Small businesses would pay less to provide health insurance to their employees.
- More jobs. The study concludes that if we stick with the current system, healthcare costs will cause a loss of 178,000 small-business jobs by 2018. Introducing reform would save about 120,000 of those jobs .
- Better wages. The study cites exploding healthcare costs as causing cuts in wages at small businesses. With reform bringing these costs down, more money would be left to pay wages.
- Better profits. Reform would bring down costs, thus increasing profits.
- Better applicants. Workers who feel tied to their jobs because they fear not finding comparable benefits would be freed up to change jobs. Small businesses providing health care would have a greater talent pool from which to choose employees.
The study assumes three components of a reform package, with variations:
- An obligation on some or all employers to contribute to employee coverage.
- Penalty payments for those that don’t.
- Tax credits for those that do.
Here’s the full study.
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Tags: MIT, Obama, Small Business Majority
June 18th, 2009 at 10:43 am
What? Are you crazy supporting continued government spending and socialism? I don’t get it. This type of thinking is what is hurting businesses. No to big government and their insanity. No to socialism and NO to these so called reforms. Get it together and talk about how government can get out of the way of business for us to succeed.
June 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
A study can be devised to show anything the developer wants the conclusion to be. Having worked in Canada I can tell you that small and medium size businesses will not find government run healthcare better or cheaper.
Most small and medium size businesses in Canada pay excessive taxes and then still supply employees with private insurance to pay for things not included in the government run plan.
Also look at the stagnation of European companies having to work under the same problems.
June 18th, 2009 at 11:11 am
For small busniesses that do not provide health care benefits today, (62% by your measure) the Obama plan will increase cost by mandating that they provide care, or pay a tax. When this occurs, all of the other benefits you have listed will fail. Your analysis could be correct on the business benefits of a national health care plan but only if your company provides benefits today, and the federal subsidy for health care is not offset by increased taxes.
June 18th, 2009 at 11:32 am
What does ‘carrying Obama’s water’ pay these days? This study has ZERO credibility! The advising authors worked for the failed Democrat John Edwards, then advised the failed Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger on helping to drive California into bankruptcy. If you are looking to have all of America follow California into the hole, this is a brilliant plan.
Common sense would suggest tort reform so doctors don’t have to carry crushing insurance and order unnecessary procedures to ‘pad the file’ in case of a lawsuit. And stopping all care to people who cannot produce a valid social security number is necessary. If immigrants are here to work, then I have to assume someone profits from their efforts. THAT person needs to pay for their benefits! The alternative, they can go back to wherever they came from. They are not America’s problem. They are breaking the law and need to be deported immediately.
Only a sad sack of liberal academics could ignore common sense and support a plan that continues the fiscal irresponsibility demonstrated by the Obama administration.
June 18th, 2009 at 11:32 am
This study is a bunch of crap and you know it. I am very suprised you even published it without more research. There are 10 other studies that predict the opposite…Why would a buisness even offer the expense of healthcare to their employess when they can get the “National” system? They won’t. Socialized health care has never worked and never will. Ask the Brits and the Canadians. When has Governent control EVER worked! Please remove me off your subscription list.
June 18th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
This is either the heighth of optimism by MIT, or an oft-typical perspective of academia; assuming theoretical scenarios of “business” is an accurate picture of how it actually happens in real life! Anybody who has worked in business for any length of time knows that what is taught in the classroom as what “will happen”or “should happen”, in no way resembles the thorny, gray issues that those of us with real business experience actually have to deal with when we are really DOING business (not just talking about it, or studying it).
Theoretical, academic conclusions about what will happen in real-life business are like medical victories in the laboratory……whose conclusions do you trust more? the physician who has only surveyed the outcome from the academic halls, or the one who has actual experience in the operating room?
WOW – to draw a conclusion that the proposed HCR will BENEFIT small business is making a big assumption that is not listed in the article: THAT THE “REFORM” METHODOLOGY PUT INTO PLACE BY POLITICIANS – (vs experienced business practitioners that do it every day) – WILL ACTUALLY WORK…that “the government” is going to be able to put a program/process in place that will actually be effective.
We already have Medicare and Medicaid infrastructures…….how efficient and effective are those systems?
A – if you feel they ARE efficient & effective, then why would we not use those 2 existing infrastructures as platforms for reform?
B – if you feel they are NOT efficient and effective, then how will any new system or infrastructure not fall victim to the exact same flaws?
Finally, Australia and Britian, who have government provided health care, are both beginning to move away from the very model that this proposed HCR is taking the US toward.. If government provided health care is the answer, why are more and more of their citizens (who can) buying private insurance?
All I know is, every real, experienced business owner and business person I talk with is terrified that politicians, theorists and bureaucrats are going to make political, theoretical, bureacratic decisions that will move us toward a socialist healthcare paradigm – and deeply and negatively effect the backbone of our free enterprise country.
June 18th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
This is biggest bucket of garbage that I’ve seen in a long time. If this kind of illogical, fussy thinking is what’s being taught at MIT, I’m so glad that I went to Univ of Texas and Baylor.
June 18th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Propaganda
June 18th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Robert Samuelson wrote an enlightening commentary on the Obama healthcare proposals which appeared in the local paper on 6/17/2009. While the article did not address the MIT study, its content makes clear the changes will not result in the positives outlined above. One needs only to study the affect of Kentucky’s healthcare changes in the early 1990s on insurance rates outside urban areas to understand the proposals can and probably will be devastating to many small businesses.
June 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Right — and Christmas is coming in July. Get real.
June 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
It is a shell gAME. more costs, 50% by the employer. Less controll by the individual, will be required to participate. Small business and the tax payer will bear the the cost through higher taxes and mandatory participation to pay for those who don’t contribute. All of this to save 1% in inflation of insurance costs?Same old story. What’s next car insurance that covers oil changes and maintanence? We are driving our small businesses out of business and our country too! It’s insane.
June 18th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
You must be kidding me. This is a crock!
June 18th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
The GOVERNMENT owns enough of us
I feel health care is good just like it is We have talked enough about it/go on to something else
June 18th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Some good, but somewhat repetitive statements. The BIG hole in the discussion is lowering of quality of service:
* It will take longer to get a Dr. Appointment – Just ask someone in Canada or UK
* The processing of benefits will become a noghtmare – Just go to the DMV or any other government run program
* Actual costs will go up not down to pat for the government oversight- Just look at any government program. Although cost per person MAY go down because costs will be spead over more people. Many of the people that the USG wants to cover cannot afford it, costs for everyone who can pay will go up. We will all share in their healthcare costs like they do in a socialist country
*Small businesses will pay more taxes for reasons in above bullet-Somone has to pay for it right? * *Lastly, I’m just sick and tired of Obama spending my money – OBama doesn’y have any money, he is spending mine. All I want from the President is to keep the country secure so that those willing to work hard can prosper. His agenda sounded good to me an I unfortunately voted for him. I dodn’t realize how liberal he was ! My bad.
June 18th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Although Obama’s health care plan might minimize business costs it is a net loser for our overall well being. The Obama, or Kennedy-Dodd plan that is currently being reviewed will diminish our free market options, increase taxes and deficits and limit our freedom of choice. Overall the burden we will all have to bear is not worth the reduction in costs. Something does need to be done to reduce health care costs but socializing it is not the answer. I encourage you all to check out the Heritage Foundation’s health care web site: http://fixhealthcarepolicy.com/
June 18th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
How is this possible? I am a small business owner and I have insurance for myself. The insurance cost me about $150 per month it is a HSA account (assurant health) so the money that I put into it is pretax and then I can pay for my own office visits. The savings is astronomical. Instead of paying 800-1200 per month for a traditional plan I pay 150 and then put away about a $1000.00 into the HSA. That covers all my medical bill plus I have about $9000.00 Left over to leave in the hsa account to collect interest. I am not saying that I know everything about the plan Obama is proposing but I think I would rather be able to choose my health care then be told what I have to do and waste more money. We are stuck in the old way of thinking here. If studies were done that showed what the average person spends in medical cost that are really necessary then I think this sort of plan makes sense for just about everyone on America. When I go to the doctors office I tell them that I have a HSA and that I pay for my own insurance and I ask for the options so that I choose what kind of treatment I need rather then saying well I have insurance so go ahead and do whatever you want (the exact reason the the cost are going up and are so high now). We have so many unnecessary procedures and drugs etc. If people had to pay out of there pocket they would be a little more picky about what they had the doctors office do or what hospital they went to. Please help me understand how this plan is going to help me and the rest of America.
Sincerely
Michael Flory
June 18th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Bulls*%$ I’m ashamed of the new communist America. I’m sad that this is what my kids will grow up to inherit.
June 18th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
This is not the case! Show me the FACTs you wued to arrive at this conclusion. It angers me to read this kind of glib presentation w/o any factual basis presented at all.
You present none of the issues that this summation is wraped in, WHY? Why are we to simply just take your word for this! There is no presentation of the usual silly presumptions that government always seems to think will be wonderful for us “small business” folks.It is simply rediculous to make the statements you make without a full presentation of why you beleive what you beleive. There is notheing in what you said to support your assumption and it is simply an assumption. Hoppe is not a stratagy.
Please, I don’t want or need any help from our goverment who can’t even run the goverment. It may be that they have no ability to understand the reality of cost since they are incapable of breaking evern let alone make a profit.
June 18th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Once again idiots educated beyond their intelligence prove that most money is wasted on a college education. This is bull S**t and is one of the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Get your head out of your a** so that you can understand what happens when a trillion dollars is taken from the economy and squandered by a medical program that will be lucky to function as well as the Post Office. This system will be set up to steal services from providers so that so lazy a**es can get someone else to pick up their health care. Too much cannabis at MIT?
June 18th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Let’s get real. This is a total sham.
June 19th, 2009 at 7:31 am
That’s the biggest crock study I’ve ever seen. It’s a liberal advocacy group. I agree that healthcare costs will be less for employers because they’ll DROP benefit coverage and force the employees to go with a socialzed plan – which is what Nobama wants.
Employers won’t automatically give raises or hire more people because the benefit costs go away – these costs are part of the employee’s wage package to begin with, much the same that FICA wages are part of the employee’s burden. (The employer doesn’t match FICA wages – they effectively are part of the employee’s pay.)
If anyone believes this crock, they surely are drinking the Nobama Kool-aid.
Hope and change – is it working for you?
June 19th, 2009 at 8:37 am
I am a small business owner and I see the oposite. Obama’s healthcare reform will destroy a 300 trillion $ health care business in the USA. I have been overseas and have witnesses government run healthcare. It is miserable!!! Healthcare is not an entitlement. We are creating a nation of entitlement! I believe in a hard days work for hard days pay! We nee to rally together to STOP the nonsence that is coming from Washington!!!
June 19th, 2009 at 9:12 am
If you paid for this research, you bought a pig and a poke! This guy is drinking more than kool aid, and it is one of most perfect examples of the academic world trying to run main street with theories and models full of encorrect assumptions. This PHD needs to work in the real world and interact with humanity.
This is nothing more then a redistribution of who pays! There is no effort to research and provide legitmate problem solving plans to the real problem of cutting the cost of health insurance to make it affordable to all. His models are perfect examples of this distortion with smoke and mirror reitoric when he assumes the 9% inflation rate over a 10 year period.
His bottom line conclusion is written to sponsor and colaborate with his portegaies in Washington; fix the problem by spending more with monies of those who have more! Why not look into the cause and effect of the rising cost of health insurance? Why not look into the increasing cost to the doctors and the providers in the health industry? Why not look into the administratrive cost of the health industry doing business with the government?
Within my own little company, if I would have charged someone with the problem solving of this particular issue, and he returned with this PHD’s response, he would have been FIRED!
What a shame that you market as a partner and advocate of small business, but apparently don’t understand the entenurpal spirit and it’s principles.
June 19th, 2009 at 9:34 am
hopefully and certainly no one will take this stupid obama reform plan seriously.
it is disturbing that this type of crap gets legs on the internet.
June 19th, 2009 at 10:38 am
This is just another Socialist program from this administration. National Health Care will cost tax payers 1 trillion MORE dollars over the next 10 years, which, by the way this administration has spent more money than ever in history with the “strong arm” tactics that could only come fro Chicago thugs.
I ask you a question, if YOU were diagnosed with any form of cancer, whould want a group of government emplyees making the decision on weather or not YOU are “qualified” for treatment that might save your life? Having had cancer, and still alive today, it is because of the health care that we have in this country, not a “French Plan” that the Muslim President Obama is pushing on the largest group of people who are young, dumb and generally lazy and want something for nothing without working for it as every American has done up until this past election. Get your head on correctly!!!!!
June 19th, 2009 at 10:43 am
The effects of “Obama health reform” are at best unknown (because details do not exist), and thus this study/article/Obama promotion is dubious.
June 19th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Utter nonsense- I assume this study was run by academics who’ve never run a business and/or supported by the Obama administraiton.
1. The CBO says there is no evidence any costs would be reduced with this plan (and based on government’s historically bloated inefficiency, it’s highly unlikely).
2. Forcing businesses to provide healthcare will reduce employment for sure. The profit incentive still works for business owners, even though govt. agencies think it doesn’t apply to them.
3. Extracting more taxes will take money away from better wages. See point 1. This plan will cost trillions!
4. Better profits – possibly at the gross profit level before you factor in the new taxes needed to pa for this.
5. Maybe, but that’s not any different than the situation we have today.
June 19th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
This article is White House propaganda. How can the author make such assertions when Obama has not yet identified how this reform will be funded. No doubt, the answer is higher taxes, including taxes on small businesses. Already there is talk of sin taxes. How many small (and large) businesses that produce and sell the “sin” prodcuts will see thier volumes and margins go down as a result? And now there is a report out that the Democrats are conmsidering consumption taxes and value added taxes including taxes on employers for their expenses related to providing employee health benefits – a perverse irony. With another trillion-dollar price tag, how can one believe that comprehensive health care reform, at same time as TARP, stimulus plans and record-setting federal spending budgets, will not crush every tax-payer, small businesses and indiviuals alike?
June 20th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
When did healthcare become a right? Sure it will help small business because they will stop offering health care and let the government do it. The government doesn’t do anything well except provide for our defense. They are in charge of regulating the banking system, we know what happened there. Social Security is running out of money and it’s ignored. Why do we think ANY plan the government comes up with for health care will be any better? It amazes me!
June 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
I wish that someone would look into BusinessBrief.com’s ownership and, more specifically its business plan and its most recent political affiliations as they relate to that business plan. The complete foolishness of this article, purporting to be scholarly, causes me to suspect that BusinessBrief.com has signed onto an Obama public relations initiative around his health care reform plan. I suppose such a ploy is intended to give Obama and his plan some credibility and some support. I dare say, judging from the comments, that this article is accomplshing the opposite result. I am now torn betwen cancelling my e-subscription out of disgust with such tripe and deception and remaining a subscriber for the entertainment value. Only kidding… it’s not all that entertaining.
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I think the study is ridiculous and the author’s assumptions absurd. How can a website put itself out there as a business brief with this kind of nonsense? Again it’s the Obama socialist approach to everything he is proposing. This country was built on free enterprise and not socialist idealism. Fix the cause of healthcares costs, how about limiting the ungodly amounts that plaintiffs get for nuisance law suits, don’t you think that might have an effect on our costs, wellness programs work to lower costs at companies and that is a proven fact……..the less government intervention the better
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I read the comments by other readers and am absolutely amazed at the vitriol spewed out by so many. Comments like “When did healthcare become a right?” are totally self centered and ridiculous, everything for me and nothing for the less fortunate, educated, privledged and intelligent. Regardless, of what the utlraconservative portion of our country may believe about how everyone should take care of whatever problems themselves that arises in their life, this is not possible for many people no matter how hard they try. As pretty much a self made person I feel confident in this postion. I know many very hard working people than would never hold out a hand for public support who cannot afford anything close to a decent healthcare plan for their families. Even though our company has a pretty decent healtcare plan that pays most of the cost for employees when you add dependent insurance it becomes expensive very fast. At the hourly rate I am tied to to remain competitive in my production department some cannot afford dependent care. I wish I could afford to pay it all but we cannot and still stay in business.
Any comments such as “This system will be set up to steal services from providers so that so lazy a**es can get someone else to pick up their health care” that is in support of the current healthcare system in this country is absolutely beyond belief. We spend more money on healthcare percapita in this country now than virtually any other country. For that type of investment you would think we would be number one also in quality of care and patient satisfaction. Fact is we are number three the last time I checked. I have no compassion for the medical industry at all . The few people I know who work for Doctors work for a pittance for long hours and little thanks from those they work for. I am of the opinion that most Doctors primarily became doctors for the money not to help people. I think the Doctors and the AMA need a wake up call.
Regardless of what all the pundits, Libertarians, Christian Conservatives and other may say the system as it exists now is an out of control train on schedule to wreck and take a lot people with it. This study is exactly what it purports to be. It is a reference document only. It may or may not be right. I don’t think even the author would guarantee his findings. Read the whole thing not just the first paragraph or probably none of it like many of the naysayers. Make judgement based on intelligence not a gut reaction.
At the end of the day it is better to do something even if it is not 100% than sit back and do nothing as we have done for years. That’s how we got here. The right to good health is a God given thing and the right of all Americans not just those of us who are on the higher end of the income curve. Children from low income families have as much right to live to a healthy old age as the children of wealthy families that summer in the Hamptons. The much used comment “Let them eat cake” from the Marie Antoinette during the French revolution immediately comes to mind.
Notice to you moaners out there somethings going to change whether you like it or not. Last time I looked you just hollered louder than the rest of us. Look around and smell the coffee, you are a minority. Get over yourself and get used to it.
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Well, that’s the end of what was some intelligent discourse on the realities of the proposed health care reform. Thanks, Ralph, for reducing the discussion to mindless ACORN and Universal Health Care for All talking points. Mantra: just attack anyone who disagrees with Obama labelling them as right wing Christian Conservatives – and like magic — intelligent and substantive discussion?… all gone.
Before it is all over, though, will someone from BusinessBrief.com just apologize and yank this “Special Report”? Thanks.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Bill,
You are intitled to your opionion just as I am entitaled to mine. Regardless of which end of the spectrum you are from ( the way I am a used to be Republican who drifted to the center many years ago not an Obama Dem). This publication is entiled to transmitt anything they want no matter who disagrees, it is in the Constitution. It is called freedom of the press. Heard of that ? Guess I just must be “UnAmerican because I still believe in that.
Aparently you did not read my whole remark so I will synosis for you.
It makes no difference whether this report is skewed to backup Obama or even if it went the other way (which I am sure you would have agreed with). My point was the system is broke and needs something done to fix it. Sitting back and saying OH!Well! accomplishes nothing and everyone suffers, even you. Look at it this way, if the Democrats are wring they get a big black eye, the Republicans have a revival of the “Age of Newt” and they get the Whuitehouse back, and majoritys in both Houses.
From you comment about universal Healthcare I take it you don’t believe affordable health care is something everyone should have. Just let um die I guess is you mantra.
June 24th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I just love the way the Ralph Lindsfor’s of the world accuse those of us who possess conservative American views as being radical and ultra-conservative. Of course, it is now in vogue to slam anyone who criticises Obama policy and label them with words like “radical”, “extreme” and “ultra”. Of course attacking those of us who question the individual policies of Obama that are destroying the basic freedoms upon which this country was founded and made this country, not only great, but unique in the world, have been very commonplace, I believe, since the Clinton Administration. If the Left cannot answer a criticism they will attack and try to discredit and destroy the critic.
I could go on and on about the comments Mr Lindsfor made about Doctors being in it only for the money (I’m sure Dr. Carr, my brother, who, from the time he could talk, only wanted to be a doctor. I’m certain he was highly motivated by money when he was 4yo!); low income, homeless, the downtrodden, who receive no healthcare…wait a minute…except…at hospitals where they are REQUIRED to treat anyone who asks for help and from a vast number of Doctors and Nurses who volunteer their services to treat those less fortunate. I could talk about the press of this country, most of whom believe in reporting only one side of the story…prime examples of which were the bias coverage of the election and the attempts to discredit Sarah Palin in particular and the coverage of the Tea Partys reported to be held across the country by “radical conservatives”.
But I’d rather just say to Mr. Lindsfor that he is certainly not a converted, middle of the road conservative. Stand up and tell us who you really are…its obvious who you represent. Labelling yourself as a middle of the road conservative is like calling a werewolf a cocker spaniel.
I am a 64 yo small business owner who has provided a small number of employees a good living, with all benefits, including company paid health care and pension plan since 1982. My company pays a large amount of taxes each and every year and pulls much more than its own weight and in the process helps to pay for many government programs that benefit the poor. I truely and deeply resent being made out as the “bad guy” by Obama, the press and you, Ralph Lindsfor! People like you and Obama want to and are in the process of killing the American Dream for generations of people to come. Our disagreement, Mr Lindsfor, is not just about health care or any other single issue. It is about the direction YOU and OBAMA and CONGRESS and the NEWS MEDIA are taking America. It is so sad. So very, very sad.
May God help America…and even you, Mr Lindsfor.
July 6th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Hello. I think the article is really interesting. I am even interested in reading more. How soon will you update your blog?
July 7th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
1st I’m very proud of all the people who wrote a response. Good for all of us because it’s about time we ALL write our reps and tell them that our vote will not be theirs if this crap passes. Here is what it will do for us:
“The potential tax consequences of President Obama’s healthcare reform have some surprises in store for employees — and not in a good way.
Congress is looking for ways to raise more than $1 trillion in new tax revenues to finance health care for the uninsured. At the top of the list: several proposals that would cut employees’ take-home pay 9% to 14%, depending on their household income and tax situation. Several of the plans under consideration would require Payroll to treat as taxable income: ALL health insurance premiums,
flexible spending account deposits, and health reimbursement arrangement contributions.” Business Briefs own comment!
This doesn’t even mention that employers’ tax breaks for benefit premiums will also go away increasing teh likelihood that they cancel insurance plans all together leaving even more people without paid benefits, which drives people to the public plan which increases its costs way beyond the $1 trillion. Vicious cycle I would say.
Finally, I’ve designed benefit plans for 30 years in many countries and we have the best in terms of accessibility. Other countries have you wait months for surgeries unless life threatening and you need to purchase an individual plan to actually get teh benefits you need. Oh by the way individuals in some of those countries pay 60% + in taxes to support this.
Tweak what we have don’t blow it up. My last point is that NO large government run program has ever worked: SS, Medicare, First Start. Even one has overruns, mismanagement, fraud and flat out does not work. How arrogant can they be to think THIS WILL work? Less government works far better.
July 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
After reading many of the posts on this subject, I am sad to say that the majority follow the usual partisan arguments free market vs. socialism, conservative vs. liberal, which sadly tells me that the majority of you have not looked deeper into this vital subject than what you are told by the talking heads on FOX vs. MSNBC. The important question is who is really paying the price for the out of control Health Care System we presently enjoy. The answer is every man, woman, child and business is paying more and more each year; but receiving less just to keep the profit driven health insurance, drug and hospitals in the life style they have been acustomed to. A minimum of 30% of the annual cost of health care is attributed to the profits taken by these companies, and many experts believe that it is more like 40-50%. United Health Care paid there CEO 1.7 Billion last year!!! That’s right BILLION. There’s nothing wrong with this system, keep listening to the same old arguments until they have sucked up the rest of your ever shrinking amount of disposable income. P.S. Who do you think is paying for the current 50 million Americans that do not have or cannot afford Heath Insurance??? Wake up people, taking out the greed factor in this system would provide half a trillion dollars in savings alone. Look beyond what the talking heads are telling you!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Partisan politics aside, I do not advocatatre a huge goverrnment giveaway on this. At the end of the day we have to take care of our less fortunate fellow citizens who for varous reasons cannot take care of their own medical expenses for the short term or even the long term. Medical costs are strangling everyone. Per my earlier comments we spend more per capita on health care than any other country in the world but cannot furnish care in a consistant manner to underprivleged children. There must be a medium somewhere than everyone can agree on in lieu of letting the cards fall where they may. It is better to do something and fail than never to have tried at all. We sure won’t be any the worse off.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
The way to do this is to give tax credits and let people purchase what they need from the commercial marketplace. That is much better than running the $ through the government, having them take 20-30% off the top for their new beauracracy and then send the money back out to people to buy form the commercial marketplace. Just look at the difference between any government-run activity and a similar private sector and it is obvious that government is not as good as the private sector. WHy would anyone think health care would be different. I’m not for the biug give away, but if it is forced on me, lets at least do it through credits and not a huge government beauracracy.
July 16th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Steve – (1) Isn’t the overhead to get the money there huge? Do you really think the government only uses 3% of every dollar you give them? I don’t know the number, but it has to be higher than 3%. I wasn’t specifically talking about marketing, more operation of the enterprise, which I believe private sector does much more efficiently than the government. I like that they have to advertise – that is what free-market competition drives and that competition is what causes excellence to be sought after. (2) And what about Quality of Service? All of the government programs, Military Accepted, that I have dealt with have been horrendously full of innefficiency, poorly qualified people, and people that once they have the job, cannot be let go. That’s just the way government civil service works – a job for life no mater how well you perform. The thought of having to deal with them at the DMV is bad enough, I just can’t imagine doing it on health care as well. (3) And then there are the examples of other countries who have done this and failed to provide good service. In spite of Michale Moore’s BS, the people in France, England, Canada, (…and even Cuba), etc will tell you the American free market medical system is much better.
August 6th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I suppose any lie told often enough will eventually be accepted as fact. Tell me where in the world socialism has helped small to mid-sized businesses? Name even one place on earth where this is true? What would help insurance costs would be if we could buy insurance across state lines and individuals could get the same tax advantages for buying insurance directly. Implementing a loser pays system in our tort system would help as well. Expanding the HSA program would help. Socializing 1/6 of the U.S. economy WILL NOT HELP ANYONE’S BUSINESS EXCEPT THE GOVERNMENT. This president and his cronies are driving me insane with their ineptitude and immoral power grab.
August 6th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Steve: Tell me where government is more efficient than the private sector? Tell me why people flock to this country for treatment they cannot receive in their home country. Explain away the fact that we subsidize the world’s socialist healthcare systems because we develop nearly all the new drugs and most of the new medical treatments. Once the market is completely removed from world healthcare there is no doubt innovation and efficiency will disappear. We will simply replace authoritarian decision making about who lives and who dies to compensate for the massive decrease in efficiency and innovation.
August 7th, 2009 at 12:06 am
L. Mark, tell me what “health insurance companies” contribute to the economy? Can you tell me specifically, what value they produce? Do they treat sick people? Do they produce anything?
Tell me what insurance companies produce?
We already have “socialism” in this country. Don’t you realize this? It’s called the state university, the public school, the fire department, the police department, the military, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the public library, the water department, the city utility—which in my part of the country produces and sells electricity substantially cheaper than private, for-profit alternatives.
If it weren’t for all of the above—and much, much more that you would call “socialist”, we businesses would have to fund all of those things in a much more direct and expensive way.
I celebrate capitalism and the free market—but I’m not a narrow-minded ideologue. Very few people accept the hoary notion that only “profitable” things should exist. Those days are past.
August 7th, 2009 at 12:35 am
L. Mark, did you know that insurance companies give bonuses to their employees who can deny the most claims?
Did you know that insurance companies frequently cancel policies as soon as they hear someone gets very sick?
Did you know that insurance companies will usually refuse to pay for the treatment or surgery your doctor recommends?
And, did you know that because of insurance industry-invented terms like “co pay” and “yearly limit” and “lifetime limit” and “procedure limit”, even if you “have insurance” you could still end up paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I seriously hope that you or no one in your family ever gets seriously ill or injured. The worst thing about it is the illness or the injury—but the next worst thing is the fact that you can often watch your life savings be stolen overnight. All for the profit of these insurance companies that don’t produce one single thing for our economy.
August 7th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Steve did you know [in the brackets below]. . . .
L. Mark, did you know that insurance companies give bonuses to their employees who can deny the most claims?
[People abuse insurance terribly; they run to the doctor every time they get a hangnail and cause rates to go up for all of us. Did you know fraud is rampant, with doctors over billing and lying about what their patient's truly need? At least I can sue my insurance carrier for wrongful denial of coverage. . . I cannot even get the post office to take responsibility for losing my mail. Government bureaucrats are completely unresponsive and unaccountable.]
Did you know that insurance companies frequently cancel policies as soon as they hear someone gets very sick?
[This is a lie. If they are under contract they cannot cancel your policy without cause. Did you know that if we forced insurance carriers to cover people with pre-existing conditions, which is what you are really talking about, NO ONE WOULD GET INSURANCE UNTIL THEY GOT SICK--again, driving up the costs for the rest of us.]
Did you know that insurance companies will usually refuse to pay for the treatment or surgery your doctor recommends?
[This is also an absolute lie. Of course they turn down some surgeries, but again, I can sue my insurance company; try going after the government when they refuse to cover your mother because she is of no use to society any longer in the eyes of some faceless board with that angry obstinate Michele Obama on it.]
And, did you know that because of insurance industry-invented terms like “co pay” and “yearly limit” and “lifetime limit” and “procedure limit”, even if you “have insurance” you could still end up paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[This is childish. Anyone with half a brain can determine what they will have to pay under their policy. I have an HSA and know exactly what my co-pay and deductible is. I have never had a problem figuring it out. If you don’t like your insurance company get a different policy. Let company’s cover what they want; don’t saddle them with state mandated coverage and allow them to compete across state lines. You will be able to find any type of policy you want if we let the market work.]
I seriously hope that you or no one in your family ever gets seriously ill or injured. The worst thing about it is the illness or the injury—but the next worst thing is the fact that you can often watch your life savings be stolen overnight. All for the profit of these insurance companies that don’t produce one single thing for our economy.
[Let’s pull out the fear mongering card. Tug on the emotional connections we have to our children and loved ones. Of course it has nothing to do with an intellectual discussion. Stolen?????? Who is stealing from me? If family is so important, on what would we rather spend money? Why should I expect others to pay for my family? People find money for ipods, expensive sneakers, yearly or more frequent vacations, and innumerable other unimportant things, but for some reason cannot prepare for hard times. We have become a selfish, self-righteous, self-important and self-indulgent people. We are suffering because of it. If I or someone I love gets ill, I will do whatever it takes to get them the care they need, but I will not use the force of the government to steal from others to meet the needs of my family. Healthcare is not a right, protecting my right to enter the market and EARN a living is all I expect the government to do for me.]
August 7th, 2009 at 1:25 am
L. Mark; in Canada, France, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Denmark and many, many, many other countries, citizens don’t pay one dime “out of pocket” for health care that is superior to what is offered in the United States of America. And Americans are now catching on.
I’m glad people who think like you lost—and lost very badly—in last year’s election. I’m glad they’re not making policy. A big change, for the better, in our health care is coming, like it or not. That’s what happens when you don’t deliver while you’re in office. That’s what happens when you don’t win elections. Get used to it.
Health Care is a human right. More and more nations are declaring that publicly. And virtually all international organizations specify that health care is a human right. (It’s not just another “consumer product” like a new car or snowmobile.)
In the long run, universal health care is coming. If we don’t see it, our kids or our grandchildren will. I would suggest you stop wasting your time, trying to hold back the inevitable.
August 7th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Also, L. Mark, you didn’t answer my question: What exactly do insurance companies produce? What value do they add to our economy? What is the exact product or service they deliver?
I await your detailed response.
August 7th, 2009 at 2:14 am
The Europeans clearly do not enjoy better healthcare; this is why they die from the deadliest diseases earlier than Americans. (Fact: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/07/should-we-envy-european-healthcare.html and there are many other such studies.) This is why most who can afford it come in droves for any advanced surgery. And as I said from the outset, it is easy for the socialist nations because they are free riding on our research and development. (Just as the Europeans and Canadians bask in the protection we provide them with the lives of our young men and treasure.) If we stop paying for the R&D and producing almost every new drug that comes online, from whom will they steal?
And look at the polls, Steve. Your messiah’s approval ratings are dropping, approval of the healthcare proposal is well below 50%. So enjoy your arrogance about one election while you can. Like most leftists, you think just because you say something it makes it so. Well, sorry it does not. The American people cannot be fooled for long. I agree that Republicans have been too timid in their attempts to reverse socialism, but your president may have awoken the sleeping giant that is the American love of free enterprise.
Are you really asking what insurance companies do? Take an intro econ class: they spread risk, but this only works when they are allowed and required to compete in a true market. Why have auto, home, fire, or any insurance? People must be held accountable for their failure to prepare for bad outcomes. If they don’t prepare they cannot expect me to pay for them.
And do you really think Europeans don’t pay for health care, of course they do. Unbelievably high taxes and the decay of political freedom. (Fact: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/326 )
Socialism in healthcare is not inevitable. Even in Europe the trend in many places is toward the free market (Fact: http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl711.cfm), but it is probably too late for them. Europe is a dead continent. Their laziness and lack of a moral foundation is to blame. Euthanasia, low birth rates, economic stagnation for two decades . . . even if they are healthy it won’t matter because the only people having babies there are those who hate everything about European culture and the continent’s past relevance.. Thankfully, liberals in this country also don’t have children, so the future is bright for American freedom.
August 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
L. Mark,
LOL! You cite the extremist Heritage Foundation as your source? If you’re right, tell me which country that used to have universal health care for all citizens is now abandoning it for a private, for-profit system?
You make a lot of silly statements. You also assume things about me without even knowing me. And you seem to rely on name-calling, which only lessens your credibility. You seem to have a lot of anger. It might be clouding your judgment.
August 7th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
L. Mark,
Also, your Heritage Foundation link, “proving” that the European countries are beginning to abandon universal health care in favor of a private, for-profit system is 8 years old!
Keeping up with the news lately? ROFL!!!
August 7th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Mark,
You seem to have a negative answer for every issue, good bad or indifferent. I assume you feel the health care system is not broke and is fine just like it is. If that is the case why does the price of healthcare increase at a yearly percentage rate higher that virtually any other sector of the US economy. This increased yearly burden cannot be allowed to go on indefinitely. I get the impression you feel this is a given and the natural order of things. Do you really feel nothing needs to be done with the system as it functions today? If you don’t feel this way then lets hear what your ideas are to make the system workable for everybody from the private sector without government involvement. The way I see it the people who call the shots at the insurance companies, Doctors and major Hospital corporations have no incentive what so ever to reduce cost to the consumer. Would you like your paycheck reduced, probably not. I sure would like to increase the profit margin in my business every year. I could sure sell a lot of stock with that kind of track record. However, I would not want to do this at the expense of the folks at the lower end of our society.
If you have any better ideas make some suggestions or recommendations to your representatives in lieu of exerting so much effort in shooting holes in what you disagree with. Let us hear them.
August 7th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Ralph, here are some suggestions:
Tort Reform – let “Best Practices” as understood at the time guide doctors and hospitals in diagnosing and treating medical problems. Do not let Trial Lawyers force “defensive medicine”.
Insure the truly needy – $29 – $48 billion a year woiuld insure those unable to afford insurance. Let those who can afford it do so or choose to live with the outcome.
Immigration Reform – Citizens of the USA do not owe unlimited social services to those in this country illegally. State and city budgets cannot sustain the growth in these costs. Ultimately, neither will our economy prosper unless we take the painful step of regaining control of the borders and limiting services to illegals.
There is no free lunch in this and no perfect solutions, but I trust free enterprise to correct serious problems.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
And what is the mechanism to make this happen?Someway or other our elected officials need to quit fighting over the spoils , quit making points with the far right and left and come to a compromise that suits the majority not the vocal minorities they all seem to fear so much. Words never killed anyone.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I agree and believe that is the underlying cause of the protests in the Congressional districts. This government was elected on the promise of transparency and working to find bipartisan solutions to problems, not use a crisis to build political capital with favored constituencies. Somehow, we have to elect people to serve in government that solutions have to be balanced between short-term and long-term realities. The Laws of Economics cannot be amended and will not be fooled. If we continue on the current course our economy and way of life are in jeopardy.
August 7th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Steve: Of course I am angry when people steal from me and tell me they will decide if I am my loved ones will live or die. You use the typical trick of the left and just dismiss my points without responding to even one of them, whereas I refuted every single one of yours. And to what name-calling are you referring? What names should I have for people who want to destroy the greatest nation on the face of the planet? I can certainly think of a few, but will exercise personal restraint. Unlike those who don’t want to take responsibility for their own health, but want me to take care of them after a lifetime of personally self-destructive behavior and laziness.
Universal healthcare will result in a huge loss of wealth and personal political freedom in this country, just as it has in your socialist utopias. Unlike you obviously, I believe people can compete and achieve without government handouts, you obviously do not. This is the fundamental differences in our outlooks. What else do you want the government to guarantee? Do you draw the line at healthcare, or should I have to pay for people to get a job, to have a car, a house, a yearly vacation? What else should we redistribute from those who create wealth and opportunity to those who do not?
August 7th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Mark, aren’t you being a little hyperbolic when you say that universal healthcare will destroy the wealth and freedom of our country?
Statements like that make you sound a bit hysterical.Why hasn’t it “destroyed” all of the other countries that have had it for decades? And, the legislation being considered in Congress doesn’t propose a universal govt system—not even close!
Also, you didn’t answer the question and tell us the name of the European country that is abandoning their govt system for a “free market” one. What country is that, Mark?
August 7th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
L.Mark, I didn’t refute each and every one of your points because it’s a waste of my time. And I don’t want to dignify some of your more innane comments by responding to them.
How dare you say that my friend’s daughter—who got cancer when she was five had “a lifetime of personally self-destructive behavior and laziness.”
Shame on you, sir.
Her dad, who had a great job with “good health insurance” ended up paying over 200K for her treatment.That man worked 60 plus hours a week as an investment broker.He was the very definition of a successful middle class, productive person.
This could happen to any of us; not just the “lazy” people.
Are you so fixated on your backward ideology that you lack a heart or a mind or both?
August 8th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
You did not refute any of my points because you cannot. You assert Europeans do not pay one dime for healthcare—one of the most inane things I have heard during this ridiculous debate—and when I refute this with the fact that they have absolutely confiscatory taxes, you have no answer. Asking where we draw the line with socialist programs is right to the point; yet, you have no answer. Making you answer why I should pay for my neighbor’s bad planning is also central. You have no response, except to make the emotionally manipulative comment about a sick child. If your friend was so successful, $200,000 should be nothing, especially given that it was for his child. In any event, I obviously could not comment on his situation without knowing all the facts. Nevertheless, the number of people in your friend’s situation is statistically small and we can easily take care of catastrophic situations WITHOUT turning over the entire healthcare system to the government. This leads to the rest of the free-market solutions I offered to which you had no intellectual response. Just call them silly and walk away.
You simply throw out your emotional outbursts and brush off relevant points because you really cannot address these issues.
You use yet another “moveon” trick of projecting, accusing me of attacking you personally, which I have not, launching into your own ad hominem attacks on me stating I have no “mind, heart or both.” Truth be told, I pity you and those like you who do not have the vision to see what is happening. Those brave enough to fight against your statist friends will have a special place in the now and hereafter, but I am sure you mock those of us of faith as well.
August 8th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Jim:
Not even the least bit hyperbolic. There is a war of ideologies occurring in this country and the left plays to win. Those of us who care about freedom better start hitting back hard as well.
The fact is that Europe is a dying continent. Look at just the few indicators to which I pointed above and even cursory research will support the position that we in no way want to emulate them. And as I have said, if it was not for the freedom we have provided them at the cost of our treasure and soldiers (The French are the worst, they won’t fight to protect freedom and have benefited from our protecting them since World War II….), and the fact that ALMOST ALL advances in healthcare come from the United States, off of which the Europeans can free ride, they would not be able to pay for their universal healthcare.
Once more, I did not say they were abandoning their socialist system, I said they are “trending toward the free market.” And they are–look at Sarkosy’s proposals, look at the fact that 90% of the French now have supplemental private insurance to cover the 20 – 40% the public plan does not cover. Look at the fact that now 12.5% of Germany’s huge public sector employee base has now opted out of the public insurance plan because the care is so awful. Europe is showing signs of rebuilding some free market infrastructure, but as I said, it is probably too late for them.
For you not to see, what Barney Frank and the President both admit, that the public option will eventually drive private insurance companies out of the market is naïve. Once the only payor is the government (with perhaps a few rag tag supplemental plans left), you don’t think everyone in the healthcare industry will step into line? You don’t need a hospital to be called “Our Great Leader Center of Mercy” and doctors running around calling each other comrade, to effectively have he same result. He who controls the dollars controls everything.
Other interesting tidbits from the Associated Press (hardly a right-wing news organization):
“More serious problems in Britain’s health care were reported last month, when cancer researchers announced that as many as 15,000 people over age 75 were dying prematurely from cancer every year. Experts said those deaths could have been avoided if those patients had been diagnosed and treated earlier.”
“Government influence in health care may also stifle innovation, other experts warn. Bureaucracies are slow to adopt new medical technologies. In Britain and Germany, even after new drugs are approved, access to them is complicated because independent agencies must decide if they are worth buying. ”
“When the breast cancer drug Herceptin was proven to be effective in 1998, it was available almost immediately in the U.S. But it took another four years for the U.K. to start buying it for British breast cancer patients.”
August 8th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Enough of this for now. . . Mr. Obama is not going to take care of me yet, so I suppose I have to go run my business. . .
August 9th, 2009 at 12:18 am
L.Mark,Your grasp opf facts is sorely lacking. Isn’t it?
Again, I won’t waste my time with mos of the bizarre nonsense you’ve written.
But tell me, what legislation currently proprosed in Congress or supported by the White House would give our country a French or British style health care system. Please be specific.
Or are you just misinformed or willfully making things up because you’re desperate, selfish and scared?
And what European country is now abandoning their universal health care system for one that encourages big corporations to profit from people’s illness and injury?
Please be specific and let me know the name of the country.
So you think it’s okay that a family pay $200K for their child who has cancer?
You’re sick. Your hatred and your backward, 19th century “everything must make a profit” ideology is corrupting your basic decency and humanity.
I’m so happy that you lost so badly and that your “all that counts is MY money” thinking was deposited on the garbage heap of history last November, where it will inevitably end up forever.
Your hoary idea of “freedom”is virtually identical to that of the southern slaveholders in 1860.
Like them, you’re going to lose this. History is against you. That’s why you’re so angry. Your “free market” fantasy has never existed and never will.
It’s hard for you. But as a believer in capitalism and a small business owner, I welcome the new America; one that will allow me to hire more people, help more families and spend my money in productive ways instead of handing it over to the robbers who call themselves “health insurance” companies.
August 9th, 2009 at 12:37 am
L. Mark, You doin’t respond to my specific questions. Do you?
And you distort what I say in a juvenile attempt to “win” the argument.
I said that most Europeans pay zero “out of pocket” for all of their medical care.You can’t refute that without making something up:can you?
And you can’t tell me why—even when conservatives win elections in Europe and Canada, as they have, very frequently over the years—the elected leaders of all of these countries have never even suggested getting rid of their health care systems in favor of a private, for-profit one.
Or do you have information the rest of us don’t have? Here’s your challenge, L. Mark: Name one country that has traded their universal health care system for a “private” one?
And, name one country that has health care that is 100 percent “private, for-profit” and still insures everyone?
And remember, imaginary countries and silly little stories about countries “moving away” from universal coverage don’t count.
Understand?
August 9th, 2009 at 1:09 am
You keep calling me angry when you are the one that keeps spewing all your vitriolic Marxist nonsense and personal attacks on me. I’ve already answered all your questions in my response to Jim. You still have not answered one of mine; again, because they are unanswerable without exposing the complete lack of any logical basis in your “positions.”
Yet another point to which you failed to respond is what else would you like the government to do for you? Set guaranteed price minimums for the “services” you offer? Pay your employee’s salary? Innumerable businesses, like my family’s, have provided insurance for their employees for years and although we would like to see free market reforms (again things I have mentioned that you keep failing to address as possible solutions to the current challenges facing health care), they don’t cry, whine and expect the government to compensate their employees.
And again, your lack of understanding or clear deceit in this debate is exposed when you fail to recognize or admit that Europeans (at least those who work) pay plenty out of pocket for health care–it is called immoral tax rates. Why should hard working healthy people, people who take care of themselves and plan for the future, be forced to pay dramatically more taxes to provide for the health care of a person who refuses to work, eats nothing but junk, and has questionable financial priorities? That perverse incentive is yet another flaw in the panacea you propose. (As I have stated, we can already care for those with catastrophic illnesses, the statistical outliers, without completely overhauling the manner in which people secure health services.)
I will let you have the last word though because I really cannot take any more time to banter with someone who will not address even one substantive point. So continue your intellectually vapid nasty diatribe and, like a small child, gain great satisfaction in your last “nah nah nah.” That is clearly the only type of response of which you seem capable.
August 10th, 2009 at 1:28 am
L. Mark,
I see you continue to avoid answering my questions.
I’ll ask again: Tell me specifically how the five year old daughter of my friend got cancer due to “laziness” and “a poor lifestyle” and “poor planning”? Please be specific.
Also, tell me why her family should be forced to pay $200K just to save this little girl’s life. Go ahead, tell us all why that is. Can you?
August 10th, 2009 at 1:30 am
There is absolutely nothing in the current plans being considered by the Obama Administration and Congress that could even remotely be consider “socialist”. Frankly, it’s laughable to think otherwise.
The large insurance companies—that have been hammering all other types of businesses—are spending approximately $1.4 million a day to spread fear and misinformation on this. They pay big lobbyists, lawyers and shills to lie for them and deceive the public.
If private, for-profit “health care” insurance was able to deliver good quality care and a decent price, they would have done so years ago. Their first priority is to maximize profits at the expense of everyone else.
Insurance companies routinely deny coverage, refuse to pay claims, cancel policies when you get sick and use scare tactics to maintain their price-fixing monopolies.
As a small business owner, the voluntary Public Option is critical if I’m going to survive and compete against other, larger companies.
I don’t buy the scare tactics of the big insurance companies and their army of well-paid lobbyists and propagandists. I’m backing the Public Option, with enthusiasm and I urge all other business owners to do the same.
August 10th, 2009 at 1:31 am
Every once and a while, it’s good to hear from a business writer with a more objective, business-oriented perspective.
Here’s a good article by Steven R. Pearlstein, the business columnist for the Washington Post, on the current debate over health care:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/06/AR2009080603854.html
August 10th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I like my health care now and I’m not concerned that people who take no steps to protect themselves find themselves in trouble when their health fails. I’m still paying for the house that we bought them when they didn’t even qualify for the loan! In fact, we’ll all be paying for that, including our kids and grandkids!
This is the next generation of the mortgage bust…. brought to you by the same people who brought you the last one. Does anybody trust these people?
August 10th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
For good information on healthcare and the needs of small business, I recommend this website. I’ve learned a lot from it. It speaks for millions of us who own and operate small business throughout the USA:
http://www.smallbusinessmajority.org
August 10th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Before Small Business Majority is accepted as the final authority on the healthcare debate, please visit boss.blogs.nytimes.com/…/who-is-the-small-business-majority to learn more about the organization. This group has no members, small business or otherwise and is closely aligned with the national Democratic Party.
August 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I imagine Steve Nesich is a shill for Comrade Obama. Probably the type that actually uses the White House ‘snitch site’ where those of us who disagree with Obama can be turned in for ‘re-education’. I can’t believe that such a thing exists, no less that the lamestream media would just let it go. ‘Ahh, so what… so it’s a Hitler-like move’…. think that would have been the press’ position if the Bush administration did anything like that!?!
If limiting a woman’s abortion choices is taking away her freedom, then what is this? Taking away everyone’s health care choices and controlling their bodies is another bold stroke FOR freedom? Funny how that argument changes with the political wind.
August 10th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Hey “paltman”; is the Small Business Majority biased. Absolutely they are. Just as the pro-insurance company, pro-monopoly groups are too. Look at the US Chamber of Commerce, for an example of an equally biased group in the opposite way. Virtually all of their money and support comes from Republicans.
All I’m saying is that business, particularly small business isn’t an ideological monolith. There are small business owners who love the big insurance companies and trust them to approve necessary treatments, pay for their claims, never cancel their policies when they get sick, and never leave them with an “out of pocket” bill for tens of thousands of dollars. I don’t agree with them.
Then, there are those business owners, like myself—and the supporters of the Small Business Majority and other groups—that want a voluntary Healthcare Public Option. We believe we’ll realize a net gain from this and we think it will force the big insurance monopoly to reduce its premiums and cover people more fairly.
I really don’t care who supports them and how many formal members they have. The point is that there not ever business owner agrees with or trusts the big insurance companies.
Gary Layton’s comments tell you something about him. Most adults don’t respect or listen to shrill voices that scream “Comrade” and “Hitler” when speaking about the President of the United States of America. When you don’t have a reasoned argument, you start shrieking all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories.
August 11th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Steve Nesich,
I respect your right to disagree with my beliefs on this subject, although I think you haven’t thought the ramifications all the way through. If we install a public option, underwritten by the full faith and credit of the US government, the government will force the competition out of business. Mr. Obama, Mr. Frank and numerous other Democratic leaders have referred to this as the first step toward a single payer system.
Just as a comparison, how long would your business survive if the US government were your largest competitor? The competition would dictate your business plan until you went out of business.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Paltman,
I extend my question again from last week. What is the mechanism to make this happen?Insurance companies, Doctors and major Hospital corporations have no incentive what so ever to reduce cost to the consumer. Unless the Federal goverment exerts some type of regulation on medical care nothing will ever change. Again, there must be some middle of the road that may not satisfy either the extreme ends on both the left and the right but will make the system affordable for the majority of our citizens and small business’ without breaking the bank or resorting to “cradle to the grave ” care.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Ralph, as I wrote last week, here are some suggestions:
Tort Reform – let “Best Practices” as understood at the time guide doctors and hospitals in diagnosing and treating medical problems. Do not let Trial Lawyers force “defensive medicine” which forces medical costs upward unnecessarily.
Insure the truly needy – $29 – $48 billion a year woiuld insure those truly unable to afford insurance. Let those who can afford insurance do so or choose to live with the outcome.
Immigration Reform – Citizens of the USA do not owe unlimited social services to those in this country illegally. State and city budgets cannot sustain the growth in these costs. Ultimately, neither will our economy prosper unless we take the painful step of regaining control of the borders and limiting services to illegals.
There is no free lunch in this and no perfect solutions, but I trust free enterprise to correct serious problems. It can happen, if enough people contact legislators demanding common sense solutions.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Without pressure from Congress none of this will ever happen. None of the Medical or Insurance professionals are going to kill the cash cow.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I keep hearing that the very vocal outbursts that are happening in local townhall meetings with Democratic Senators are all plants – that the very loud and unhappy protests couldn’t REALLY be real…..that they are just being put together by the Right-Wing conspiracy…..
All I can say is – Look at the posts. There surely seem to be plenty of us that are highly concerned about the stated goal of pushing HCR through by year end. This is a hugely complex and very important issue. Just as complex and important business challenges have to be looked at carefully with ALL sides considered in order to design the BEST response – how can we expect something as serious as national health care reform – to be made to happen just to accomplish a political time agenda?
I am not a reluctant adopter of change; I am pretty open minded and divergent in my problem-solving approach. But this is such a tangled ball of wax, to try to untangle it is going to take a LOT of hard work, commitment to doing it RIGHT (shortcuts are not acceptable), and we need to take the time it takes – not just cram the solution down people’s throats. Doing it right the first time saves time and money in the long run.
I would just love the media to get ahold of this column we’ve all been generating here; in my mind, it verifies that all the yelling and disruption is REAL as an indicator that there are a LOT of us concerned about the ripple effects of this health care reform…..not only for ourselves, but for our children.
Ultimately, I say that small business should have the final save about what it will be responsible for. Small business is what keeps the majority of Americans employed, industry spinning, . You can make “small business” and “the wealthy” (certainly a relative term) responsible for every other person’s choices – but in the long run, I don’t want government telling me what my small business has to do. If I am not an employer of choice with competitive wages and culture – my business won’t survive……and only those that are doing things right, will. We do not want to make it impossible for those good businesses to keep providing products, cash and opportunity for all of us.
Let’s take the time it takes – and not throw a government designed and mandated program at a complex problem…..
August 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
As I said, none of the common sense solutions, which will not destroy the economy or take away from individual liberty, will occur without a clear message from millions of US citizens. Congress is a creature of self-preservation and will bow to pressure from the interest groups financing campaigns until the clearly expressed wishes of the electorate convince the Members to do otherwise. Please contact your Senators and Representatives demanding tort reform, intervention in the insurance markets only for those US citizens truly in need of assistance, and immigration control with limitations on the assistance available to illegal aliens. The free market will correct most of the other problems. However, no system will ever be without flaws or cover every possible situation which may arise.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
“Tort reform” has been pushed as a false panacea by the Republicans for years; they’re paid through legal bribes (a.k.a. “campaign contributions”) to push this on the part of companies that refuse to accept responsibility when they make egregious and harmful mistakes.
Lawsuits and legal settlements are responsible for 1% to 3% of our overall medical costs. How will “tort reform” make any sort of a difference, given that reality? You could prohibit all medical-related lawsuits and still not make a real dent in our medical costs.
The main problem with the current system is all of the money we’re forced to pay—from our premiums for billing, advertising, marketing, sales, and other internal bureaucrats that are deemed necessary by the private, for-profit insurance companies.
Executive salaries and other compensation is also a disgrace. They get this money from denying our claims and refusing coverage.
A Public Option is the ONLY thing that will present real competition to the handful of giant insurance companies that form a classic, price-fixing, colluding monopoly.
If a voluntary, non-mandatory public option is doomed to failure due to incompetence or lousy care, why would the private insurance companies and their shills be so panicked about it? If it is “another crappy government program that CAN’T work”, then why do the insurance companies fear it? Why are they spending $1.4 million a day to defeat it?
Could it be that they know the truth? Could it be that a voluntary, public option will provide superior care and lower prices—and that’s what scares the hell out of them?
August 11th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Let’s put this into perspective; the Department of Energy was introduced in 1976 with the stated objective of “reducing our dependence on foreigh fuels”. They cost us $2.4 billion dollars a year today and we’ve never been more dependent on foreign fuels.
That’s the government you are placing your trust in.
Give me private, profit-driven and competitive companies any day!
August 11th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Steve Nesich,
You are very good at ignoring any argument that doesn’t fit your (and the radical Liberal) template. I won’t quibble over litigation cost additions to overall healthcare costs. That was not the point I made. My point is that billions of dollars a year are unnecessarily spent for tests ordered by doctors to provide cover in case of litigation. The proposed healthcare plan does nothing to alleviate that problem, unless you are willing to concede the government will ration care.
You also did not dispute my points regarding a plan to provide assistance for the truly needy to buy health insurance or the effect on healthcare costs created by the illegal immigrant problem. My solution to this whole question does not lie in one component, but rather in the cumulative effect of all the pieces. No fair assessment of the government option can conclude that it would lead anywhere except a single payer system. The government does not have to make a profit, so the private insurance companies would be forced out of the market. Any successful businessperson understands this concept. Bureaucrats might not.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Gary,
Why would the medical industry even want to reduce costs. They have a highly profitable business and a captive audience. Power is it’s own worst enemy.That’s like leaving a fox babysitting a chicken coop.What’s the incentive without an outside push for reform. Any new entrys in the field just like politicians are quickly seduced by the system and a get rich mind set. They talk a great game about reform, morality etc andf then take kickbacks under the table and frequent the Washington call girl network in the evenings.Power breeds contempt for the people you are supposed to serve. It’s human nature and unchecked we are all subject to the temptation.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Paltman, please refrain from the name-calling (“radical Liberal”) and stick to the substance of the issues. Okay?
So, where is your source for your claim that the “illegal immigrant” population is responsible for high health care costs? Given that these people avoid any and all government contact at all costs, explain how they are driving up health care costs? The only way “they” could be driving up health care costs is when the uninsured among them have to go to an Emergency Room; and that’s true for anyone uninsured—not just illegal immigrants.
It’s interesting to hear you concede that a Public Option would offer better care at a lower cost. Do you realize that’s exactly what you did? “The government does not have to make a profit, so the private insurance companies would be forced out of the market.” Wow.
Thanks for buttressing my argument that private, for-profit insurance companies have to charge more in order to keep their profits and that a non-profit alternative would “force them out of the market”.
If a private plan charges more, delivers less and then refuses to pay your claims, doesn’t it deserve to be forced out of the market by a better alternative?
I can’t speak for you and your business, but I want to get the best value at the lowest cost, for all of my employees. If the insurance companies are so “superior” to a voluntary, non-mandatory public option, let them prove it!
August 11th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
“Paltman, please refrain from the name-calling (”radical Liberal”) and stick to the substance of the issues. Okay?”
You’re a real piece of work. I think you’re just talking to yourself – you’ve done a real good job at ignoring everyone else’s views throughout this thread…
Good grief
August 11th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I agree with Ralph. The big insurance monopoly currently has zero incentive to lower their costs, cover all citizens, and pay large claims.
They’ve promised for years to “play nice” through “voluntary guidelines”; it’s all bunk. They’re playing us for fools. And all other businesses have been forced to take what they give us, with no alternative.
The insurance industry has had decades—literally decades—to change their ways, honor their contracts, cover all citizens, reduce their obscene profit margin and executive compensation packages, and be fair in their dealings. And they’ve failed completely.
All the insurance companies want is profit. They don’t personally hate the American people. And I’m sure they privately feel bad when a person dies from lack of health care, or when a family goes bankrupt because they refused to pay a claim. But people who need health care get in the way of maximum profits, so…
You see, it’s not personal with the insurance companies; it’s just business.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Ralph,
I don’t understand from your answer if you are for or against government health care. If we are acknowledging the negative aspects of human nature, I’d rather have an option to choose another private company. And have the option to take the private company to court to settle disputes… and have some branch of the government to turn to if I don’t like the way I am being treated.
Once the government makes the rules, enforces the rules, and administrates the disputes I am completely in their ‘hands’. If they are also subject to greed and corruption, who do I turn to for resolution of my dispute? And keep in mind, this really isn’t about lowering anybody’s costs, this is about the Democratic concept of ‘social justice’. It essentially amounts to annexing the insurance coverage someone has worked their whole life for and redirecting it to the person or persons the government deems to have the greater need and longer life expectancy…. regardless of whether they have ‘earned’ any of it. This is part of the wealth redistribution scheme plain and simple.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Steve,
All of your above arguments, item by item, can be applied in the exact same manner to the Federal Beaurocracies that are already in place…
The profit in the Federal model is the payoffs the politicians line their pockets with.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Actually, Rick Beiles, calling me “a real piece of work” doesn’t add anything to this discussion.
I’m very aware of other’s opinions. I just don’t agree with some of them. Understand the distinction?
August 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Rick, when you speak of “payoffs” to politicians, I assume you mean the legalized bribes (a.k.a. “campaign contributions) sent from the insurance monopoly and their lobbyists to many of the Senators and Congressmen who are writing and voting on health care legislation?
If not, what “payoffs” are you talking about? I can easily prove my statements about the money taken by Congress from the insurance industry. If you’re talking about another type of payoff, please show us the source for your claim. Thanks.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
To make a simile to basic high school physics concept, any body moving in free space in a straight line will continue to move in a straight liune unless acted on by an outside force. I am simply saying the medciical industry is exactly the same . It will continue on the same path unless acted on by an outside force. It is going to take more than market forces to initate a change. We don’t have the option of boycotting this particlar industry to influence it down like the price of gas. Options are to take what you can get for whatever they want to charge you or roll over an die. That’s a pretty grim choice of options. As I have intimated before , they have us all by the short hairs and the average guy in the street has no bargaining power or better options, “pay or die”.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Rick,
You said “All of your above arguments, item by item, can be applied in the exact same manner to the Federal Beaurocracies that are already in place.”
That’s nonsense.
But if you’re so sure of it, lay out your case. Show us, “item by item” how private insurance companies and the government are the same.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Steve wants specifics, and so do I.
Steve, can you detail the supposed greed you ‘paint the entire insurance industry with’? Can you tell me how well Medicaid does at controlling costs relative to their private industry counterparts? Can you tell me, will Medicaid be financially solvent in the future or is it going broke? Can you give me an idea of how many employees a system like this would need? Any idea what it will cost? And the “savings” this plan will produce, tell me where they come from. (and while you’re at it, can you answer this; is America financially in the position to do this now?
I need statistics and real evidence, not some single manufactured story designed to pull emotional strings, real information.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Gary,
I still want to know what incentive you think the industry has to police their own house. I don’t think you can come up with one valid argument on this subject. Draw me a picture.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Gary,
Of course I don’t know all of this yet; in case you don’t know, the legislation isn’t finalized.
Medicaid will face some shortfalls in the years to come; and that amount of money is significantly less than the Bush tax cuts. It’s also actually less than the costs of the two occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Of course America is in a “position to do this now.” Are you implying that you’d support such a plan if it were offered in the past or in the future? Or is this a neat little talking point you’re dutifully parroting?
I think you’re just opposed to a voluntary, non-mandatory public health care option. Is that the case?
August 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Steve Nasich,
Your ideas are identical to a radical Liberal, whether you are one or not. You continually divert attention from the real issue and ignore any argument that diminishes your beliefs. No reasoned reading of my position on single payer can lead to a belief that I support it. Which outcome of the public option is your preference: rationed care or dramaricly higher taxation to cover the uninsured? Where do we get the care givers for an additional 50 million newly insured? Will the new folks be healthier than those currently insured or will there be a huge upfront cost? As for proof of the effect of illegal immigration on healthcare costs, I refer you to California and other states with high illegal immigrant populations. Can the government plan provide services for this segment of the population cheaper than currently done? Why should it? Why are we paying to encourage people here illegally to stay? Do we need the labor force with our current unemployment rate? Help me understand how another bloated government bureaucracy is going to improve this problem. What is your thought on providing insurance for the truly needy? Incorporated with the other reforms I mentioned provides a good starting point for discussion.
August 11th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
One thing that is not talked about much is the cost of not doing anything with healthcare and continue “as is”. I am not an Obama supporter or totally agree with the propasals being thrown around, but this much I do know, the consequences of not doing anything are HUGE! I run a company of about 75 employees and over the last 7 years the cost of our medical insurance has gone up 77% (yes 11% per year). Our employees (including me) pay 25% of the premiums for both themselves and their families. That 77% increase has directly hit all of us. How is that any different than a tax increase except that it is ending up in the mangement of the healthcare provider’s pocket instead of the government? From a personal and business standpoint, we need to do something to help curb the cost or it will break us all! I am a Republican but I am embarrased that the party I have been loyal to for over 30 years, sits back and does nothing or even has any real ideas how to fix the healthcare system. All they do is bash the people that try. Is the plan perfect? Hell no, but at least they are trying to do something! I always tell my employees, “if you keep doing the same thing, you will continue to get the same results whether good or bad”. As much as I don’t want to, I must at least give Obama some props for not just saying he was going to do something, but he is going to do something. For all of you that believe what they are working towards is so terrible, you must have a better plan. Where have you been while my costs have went up 77%??? We are all being “taxed” and because it’s not being sent to the IRS, you haven’t even noticed! My Republican party has been boasting they haven’t increased my taxed, but in fact they by not doing anything!
August 11th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
I have read each post on this site. I am very sorry that Steve is being so closed minded about the suggestions, facts and comments being made by so many. Every question was answered repeatedly, maybe not in the format Steve wants but the answers are there. There is obviously no perfect solution to the issues that America has. Not one way that will meet all needs. I agree change is in order and there are some wonderful suggestiions on who to do that in these posts. I personally feel universal healtcare or government run healthcare is not going to be beneficial and will cause more problems in the long run. Rushing to ge this passed is also a mistake. We need to research and test more than just put something in place that may fail or create a mess.
August 11th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Steve I am very sorry for what happened to your friend but to be honest if he really did pay $200K for his daughters healthcare then he must have been able to afford it without changing his lifestyle. I say this because hospitals, cancer centers, physicians and such offer charity programs that will allow anyone with such bills to receive write offs so they are not put in a position to pay such large patient responsiblity. They use income levels, family size and demographics to determine eligibility. He would have the choice of applying for these programs and if he could not afford to pay, he would not have to. I know I’d rather pay every penny I had to save my child if I could afford it, or I would have no problem applying for a charity program to help.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
SH,
The repub’s have some great ideas that would bring down costs:
1.Stop Paying the Crooks
2.Move from a Paper-based to an Electronic Health System
3.Tax Reform
4.Create a Health-Based Health System
5.Reform Our Health Justice System
6.Invest in Scientific Research and Breakthroughs
Check out the details at the following link: http://www.healthtransformation.net/
Kyle
August 12th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Kyle,
No disrespect intended, but the link you sent us is filled with the most biased, backward and deceptive nonsense I’ve ever seen. To listen to the extremists on this site—like Newt Gingrich—you’d think that the only problem with American health care was the legal right to sue for shoddy medical work.
When I saw the headline, “Stop Paying the Crooks”, I thought for a second they were talking about the big insurance companies. They weren’t.
All of their “suggestions” would only tinker with the system. They wouldn’t do anything to ensure all citizens, reduce costs, or force insurance companies to pay legitimate claims. Why? Because Republicans like the current system and they don’t want it to change. The insurance companies give them legal bribes (a.k.a. “campaign contributions”) and in return they protect their benefactor’s interests. It’s a corrupt, vile system that has to change.
While the defenders of the status quo play golf on world class courses, spend weekends on yachts, and go to fancy, expensive parties with big insurance executives and lobbyists, the rest of us and paying higher premiums, watching policies get cancelled, have our care denied and our claims rejected.
Insurance companies add no value to our economy. They are a drain on every other type of business. Why anyone would defend them and their horrific track record is beyond me.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Kyle,
I love the 6 ideas to bring down costs you noted. Problem is they had 8 years to implement any one or even part of any or all of them and did they? That’s my point, the only time all the “great ideas” come about is when they are forced which is where they are at now. If Obama was not pushing the reform, then once again nothing would be done and no ideas would even be brought to the table. All of these politicians are so worried about upsetting the apple cart because if they do they won’t get re-elected that nothing ever gets done. I now realize I’ve had my head in the sand for many years! The two party system we have in place is killing our country. These politicians are suppose to be doing what is right for “US” and not what is going to get them re-elected. Both parties should be ashamed of themselves for losing sight of this. It’s not about “US” the people, but what deal can I make to get my agenda passed. When will the government run like we have to run our business????
August 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
SH has hit the nail on the head. The premiums we’re forced to pay to a private, for-profit insurance company are also a tax: a “Private Tax”. We have no choice in the matter. We can’t go without health care coverage, and the big insurance companies form a classic monopoly where they collude and fix prices, leaving we the consumer with no where else to go.
As a business owner and a taxpayer, my costs continue to rise. But nothing has risen as fast as my health care costs.
As SH points out, the Republicans love to crow about how they’d “never raise taxes”. But they don’t have to. They let their buddies in the insurance companies raise the “private health care tax” through the roof. And the rest of us have no choice but to hand our money over to them. Ultimately, the Republicans have cost me and my employees a LOT of money through this corrupt, cozy “quid pro quo” arrangement they have with their insurance company benefactors.
If the private, for-profit insurance companies did what they promised: deliver good quality health care to all citizens at a decent price, with no “co-pays”, claim denials, exclusions, rescissions, etc, this wouldn’t even be an issue. We’d all be discussing something else.
Health insurance companies are like the disobedient child who does it again and again and again, no matter how many chance you’ve given him. And then, when you let him it’s time to accept the consequences of his behavior, he insists “No, please, this time I REALLY mean it! I’ll be good this time! I promise!!!”
I don’t believe them anymore. I think they’re just trying to kill any changes in their current “gravy train” setup and hoping they can scare enough citizens through deception and fear-mongering. It won’t work this time.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Actually, Hoheusle, my friend did apply for every charity program he found out about. He had a fundraiser among family and friends. He tried to get government help on the federal, state and local levels. He visited with his congressman and state legislator. He busted his butt trying to raise that money.
He was only able to come up with a total of just over $30K. He was told by the hospital that there was far more demand for this funds than supply. The charity funds are usually well below what is necessary.
He has to liquidate virtually all of his investments and also take out a second mortgage on his home. He almost had to declare personal bankruptcy. It was a complete nightmare for him and his family.
One night he said to me, “It’s bad enough that my daughter has cancer. But why do I also have to watch everything I’ve ever worked for be taken away from me? Why does her disease also mean that my family has to be financially destroyed?”
All I could think of was if his family lived in Norway, or Japan or Australia or almost any other country, his daughter’s treatments wouldn’t have cost him nearly anything. Why did he have to suffer both his daughter’s disease and financial disaster, when he worked every day since college, had a good job, and made completely responsible choices his entire life?
And why can’t all of us realize that his experience could happen to any of us? No matter how good your job, or how good your “insurance coverage” might seem, it’s not until you or a member of your family becomes really ill, that you find out the horrible truth.
I’m glad we have a president and a congress that wants to do something about this. I’m tired of excuses, rationalizations and “more studies”. I want a solution. Now.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“hoping they can scare enough citizens through deception and fear-mongering.”
Huh, kinda like Obama is doing right now you mean? Oh yeah – I see your point… Not!
August 12th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
An excellent article by the founder of Whole Foods – I’m sure HE’S a hard core Conservative :p
Here are eight reforms that would greatly lower the cost of health care for everyone:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html?mod=djemEditorialPage
August 12th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I hear Obama complaining about “special interests scaring” the public by running advertisements but the only two ads I’ve heard on the subject were from the DNC trying to misrepresent the issue.
Question: The Department of Energy was founded in 1976 to decrese our dependence on foreign energy sources. They cost us 2.4 billion today and employ thousands (who will all get pensions when their fat salaries run out). How are we doing on the foreign energy dependence thing?
Question: What in the world makes you think the bloated and unresponsive agency that will be formed here will be any more successful at ‘solving the problems with health care’?
The answer is of course that they will be no more effective with this government intrusion then they were with the DoE. The government can’t do ANYTHING as well as the private sector. That’s not thier role. Never should be. The current system isn’t perfect. Nothing is. But to think that we can ‘fix’ our problems by letting this administration take down another business sector, that’s nuts!
Read the great story about the $200 per kid welfare giveaway in NYC today. That Mr. Obama, he sure is our friend.
August 12th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Gary Layton, if you decide to run for a political office, let me know. At least based on what I’ve seen you say here, you’ll have my vote.
Gary Layton, if you ever run for something – let me know. You’d probably get my vote. You sound sane, objective, reasonable – and don’t seem to have the attitude that you’re owed.
August 13th, 2009 at 9:28 am
There is a major error in the conclusions drawn in this MIT study. The report concludes that rising health care costs will cause small businesses to reduce wages in the future. But, according to this study, only 38% of these small businesses had health care in 2008. The study indicated that this number had declined from 67% in 1995. I think a more reasonable conclusion is that almost no small businesses will be offering health care as health care costs continue to increase. The study’s erroneous conclusion on this one point makes me suspicious of the entire study!
We need health care reform, but Obamacare throws the baby out with the bath water.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Ken,
You’re entirely right when you say “I think a more reasonable conclusion is that almost no small businesses will be offering health care as health care costs continue to increase.
That’s why, as a small business owner, I’m entirely for a public option for me, my family and my team members. Health insurance is a racket and there is no reason small businesses should be forced to pay for it.
Here’s a good resource to learn more:
http://www.smallbusiness4health.org
August 13th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
“Health insurance is a racket and there is no reason small businesses should be forced to pay for it.” per Steve Nesich. I suppose Steve thinks it’ll be less of a racket when we are all forced to pay for it.
So let’s look at how this program is structured to ‘allow’ a small business to continue offering health care coverage for it’s employees:
- there is an additional 8% tax on the cost of the health care assessed directly to the business
and
- every small business who offers health care coverage to it’s employees will be audited every year
I may be naive, but this doesn’t sound like a program that encourages small businesses to maintain a private option or an insurance plan that won’t force everyone onto the government preferred single payer system.
Come on Steve, get past the lies and just admit that this is intended to end private insurance, therefore what Obama is saying now is an open face lie.
August 13th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
“Health insurance is a racket and there is no reason small businesses should be forced to pay for it. ”
Steve,
No one forces small business to pay for it. It is a BENEFIT offered by small business, and usually calculated into the pay rate for the job offered…
August 13th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Gary wrote, “I may be naive…”
Yes, Gary. You may be indeed.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Janet wrote: “All I know is, every real, experienced business owner and business person I talk with is terrified that politicians, theorists and bureaucrats are going to make political, theoretical, bureacratic decisions that will move us toward a socialist healthcare paradigm – and deeply and negatively effect the backbone of our free enterprise country.”
If that’s “all you know”, maybe that’s the problem, Janet. Perhaps you need to know more than you do?
August 13th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Steve,
Naive…. like in believing “I’m from the government, and I’m here to help?”
You can’t be that stupid. It is time to come clean and acknowledge who you work for, and how you are involved with the Democrats and/or this administration.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Actually, Rick, the marketplace we compete in does force us to offer private, for-profit “health care” insurance. It’s the only way to have a realistic chance of getting the most qualified and experienced workers.
Try offering a job to a good candidate that doesn’t offer some form of private medical insurance and see what happens. The market does, in effect, force us to pay private insurance companies for these policies if we want our companies to be viable and competitive.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
BTW, insulting people like me and Janet is a last resort for someone whose argument is weak. Except for the ‘entitlement army’, who wins with this proposal? And if someone wins, then someone had to lose, right? Are you for ‘social justice’ Steve? Are you a redistribution guy? Do you feel guilty for having things you worked for, or will you be on the receiving end of the giveaways?
Obama’s own comments indicate that he is for a single payer system even though he denies it daily. Is it OK with you to have a president who is a liar? He’s a bright man, I assume he must know that his previous comments about being able to eliminate private insurance, and his comments about favoring single payer were being recorded.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
“Come clean”? LOL! You’re the one who hasn’t provided a link to his business website and could possibly be hiding behind a pseudonym, Gary. Are you?
I’ve been pretty open with who I am and what I believe. I’m a small business owner who believes strongly in the free market—but doesn’t believe in the nonsense that it works for absolutely everything, in all circumstances, for all people, at all times, with absolutely no regulations, under any circumstances. I’m a pragmatist; not a dogmatist. I believe in doing what is smart and what actually works.
I’m not hiding anything. I’m proud to say I voted for President Obama and supported Democratic candidates for other federal and state offices. And there are millions of small, medium and large business owners and managers who did the same.
I don’t accept the scare tactics and the made-up nonsense being fed to us by big insurance companies and their paid lobbyists and politicians. They’re trying to protect this rigged system that keeps a “gravy train” going at the expense of all other businesses. It won’t wash with me. Sorry.
I want a choice between private, for-profit companies and a public health care option, just as I do between FedEx, UPS and the USPS. They’ve coexisted for years and we Americans are free to choose between them. I want the same for health care.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
In response to your question, Gary; who wins with this proposal?— Business owners and citizens.
Who loses with this proposal? —Big insurance companies, their investors, their lobbyists, and their congressional errand boys.
Next question?
August 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
“I believe in doing what is smart and what actually works.”
And socialized services has been smart and has worked where? Feel free to choose any example at any time in history…
August 13th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Must be some business you own Steve. You seem to spend all of your time here.
Business owners don’t win when you eliminate choice. Obama has said that in very specific words that he is “for single payer”, and that it “will take 10, maybe 15 years to eliminate private insurers”. He must have known he was being recorded!
I find it amusing that you use USPS as an example. They lose 7 billion a year and can’t compete. Should we force Fed Ex out of business too with some audits and maybe an incremental 8% tax? Would that ‘serve’ business?
This is about ‘social justice’ Steve. Redistribution of wealth.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
BTW Steve, Gary Layton is my real name in the event you’d like to forward my ‘misinformed posts’ to the White House snitch site. Maybe some time in a reeducation camp could straighten out some of my confused, ‘old school’ ideas that are very much out of step with the entitlement generation.
Did you ever think you’d live in an America where a snitch site would exist? These are the people you support Steve. They don’t even read the legislation, but they have time to try to silence the people who did!!!
August 13th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Enough with you Steve. You voted for this, and I’m glad you’re happy with it. Sounds like denial works for you. If you get the chance to come out from under Keith Obermanns desk at MSNBC, take a look around and see what’s happening to America.
There is no snitch site, we don’t have 34 ‘Czars’ who were appointed without any oversight whatsoever and who answer only to the president, Obama didn’t ask ACORN and SEIU to jam the town hall meetings…..
What color is the sky in your world Steve?
Adios amigo. I’m finished here.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
“Did you ever think you’d live in an America where a snitch site would exist?”
Gary -
It has happened here before, During WW1 – Over 150,000 citizens were jailed by the Federal Gov’t for questioning the Administration under that other famous Progressive – and hero to Hillary Clinton who she says she models herself after, Woodrow Wilson…
August 13th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
You’re a “strong supporter”, huh? Because of things like this:
-Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.
Do you also support auto insurance companies paying to repair accident damage that occured before a policy existed? I just can’t understand….. what is described above isn’t discrimination. Insuring someone with a known pre-existing condition is just stupid! Why get insurance at all if you can wait until you are sick and then sign up? This is an exact replay of what the government did to the banks by making them take mortgages from people with no ability to pay. HE’S A SOCIALIST!
Yours must be some business!
August 13th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Rick,
That makes this weeks advertisements by the National Guard for ‘internment police’ that much more ominous.
August 13th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Gary –
It wouldn’t be the National Guard.
It would be ACORN…
:p
August 13th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Can you provide us the link of the “snitch site” you’ve told us about?
flag@whitehouse.cov
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/07/white-house-collect-fishy-info-health-reform-illegal-critics-say/
August 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Gray skies here in the Northeast today too Steve.
I’ll get the link for you. I’ll also provide the link to the National Guard and Army sites where they are advertising for ‘internment camp police’. The government also has a contract with KBR to build camps on short notice should they be needed.
One can only speculate as to why all of this might be necessary. There is cause to worry though when Janet Napolitano identifies people who write to their congressman about immigration and returning war veterans as being on her ‘watch list’.
I remember when I was young and liberals actually defended other’s right to their opinions.
August 13th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Steve,
Please do not credit that Socialism statement to me as I have never addressed the issue as I think it is a non-issue and a sign of sheer paranoia. It reminiscent of the McCarthy era when the term communists was throw around so freely and everyone was suspected of wanting to turn this country over to our own copy of Stalin, nothing but a scare word for people who hardly understand the term and probably could not even give you a decent definition of it’s meaning.
Where did this snitch site rumor come from? That’s a new one on me. Almost sounds like something from the Bush administration regarding anyone who voiced a difference with the administrations policies. You were unpatriotic. I have not heard that from any public official except Cheney again since Obama took office.
Back on subject here, I have scanned all of this back and forth the last couple of days and realize it does nothing if not demonstrate the huge chasm between opinions in this country. I can watch the evening news and see the same in the scheduled town meetings. It is very depressing for all of us, guess we need to start another war so we all learn to pull the wagon together again. I see no give and take in any of the arguments. The impression is “this is the way I believes it ought to be and the rest of the world must be wrong”. The gumbo of people, opinions, religion and other differences is what has made this country what it is. Ask any dog owner, the mutts are the smart ones not the poodles, the mixtures.
Many of you are probably not old enough to remember but this is the third go around on the subject of healthcare in the last 50 years. I remember them all. I remember watching the anger and harsh words thrown around in the early 60’s when JFK tried to get this done. I remember the exact same words and attitudes during the effort by the first Clinton administration to accomplish the same thing. Now we are retracing the same script again, same words just different people talking.
Seems to me that anything they inspires that much passion in people justifies a compromise that works for the majority not the vocal few.
This is my last comment here as I feel it has become a waste of time trying to change the minds of people who already had their minds made up before they came to the table. You go your way and I will go mine and never the twain shall meet.
When you are going your way though keep this one thing in mind. This country was built on compromise and no one can argue that point.
If some time in the near future we don’t all learn to do that again this country will be nothing but a interesting time in History that lasted 150years and then disintegrated into a bunch of smaller bickering unimportant backwaters.
August 13th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Ralph – The snitch site is real – and front page news – where have you been?!?
I have a post with info on it – but is locked up with a “Your comment is awaiting moderation. ” message next to it
August 13th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
And McCarthy was not a kook. Almost every person under investigation at that time were, in fact, bonafide Communists – at least in their political passions.
Sheer historical revisionism teaches otherwise…
August 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Steve – you definitely seem to have blinders on – and see what you want to see it seems.
The snitch site is very real – and a very big PR problem for this administration.
My post is still ‘awaiting moderation’. I will try to post the info in chunks to bypass the moderation process…
And, no, McCarthy was not a kook…
August 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Snitch email address: flag(at)whitehouse.gov
August 14th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Rick,
McCarthy ruined the lives and careers of many people. He made people spys on thier friends and neighbors and accomplished absolutetly nothing other than a sad page in our history books. As I said last night, this is a waste of time.
August 14th, 2009 at 9:25 am
OK – that worked… – here’s a response story to it… I think the moderators flag hyperlink data so I am removing the http to try to bypass…
And you can find dozens more by Googling the snitch email address…
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/07/white-house-collect-fishy-info-health-reform-illegal-critics-say/
This was front page news for a week at least – and not that long ago… Probably not in the NYT or L.A.Times though for obvious reasons…
August 14th, 2009 at 9:26 am
OK – that worked too – it must have been the ‘@’ in the email address that set off the moderation. Anyway – there the ‘phantom’ info that we ‘just made up’…
August 14th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Ralph,
That’s your take… We were at active war with Russia on the spy front – and our country was being infiltrated by Communists and their sympathizers…
McCarthy ruined the lives of many, yes… Many who were avowed Communists and would have liked nothing better that to take down our economic system and replace it with socialist/communist ideals…
We are reaping the fruit of that infiltration right now.
That’s why the grassroots majority are being so vocal and reactionary to the current socialistic programs that are trying to be imposed…
August 14th, 2009 at 9:57 am
An addendum to my last post – I DO NOT condone snitching by ANY administration at the Government level, whether it be McCarthy, Wilson, Bush (9/11), or Obama now…
It’s a dangerous maneuver and straddles the ‘Freedom of Speech’ issue…
I think I needed to make that clear so I don’t get the ‘hypocrite’ card throw at me…
August 14th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Rick,
Gee had not realized it was that bad already. Maybe I should start shopping for some property in Idaho where I can dig a hole in the ground to store my emergency supplies and ammo when the big takeover comes.Guess we should not be arguing about healthcare if thats on the way.
August 14th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Good point… Go for it…
August 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Ralph,
You say:
“Where did this snitch site rumor come from? That’s a new one on me. Almost sounds like something from the Bush administration regarding anyone who voiced a difference with the administrations policies. You were unpatriotic. I have not heard that from any public official except Cheney again since Obama took office.”
The snitch site is not a rumor. flag@whitehouse.gov
You apparently didn’t hear Nancy Pelosi say that it was un-American to voice dissatisfaction with the health care plan at town hall meetings. Where do you get your news? You are blind in your left eye!
August 14th, 2009 at 11:30 am
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20090812/bs_bw/aug2009db2009087477965
Now here is a perfect example of how well the Government runs things.
August 14th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Internment camp police advertisements are not a figment of our imaginations either. Not claiming to know what the purpose of this is….
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106304
August 14th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Wow, you people that are talking about a “snitch” site are really losing your mind! I had never heard of this before until this forum so I read the FoxNews story from the link above and it doesn’t say anything in the article about sending them the names of people who don’t agree. Those of you who can come up with a “snitch” site out of that article must be in bed with that KOOK Rush Limbaugh! First off, flag(at)whitehouse.gov is not a website, it’s an email address. It was set up for people to send things that are being thrown out that are just incorrect so they can address them. One thing I know is that their are TONS of things flying around about the healthcare reform right now that don’t even have a bit of truth to them. It has gotten way out of hand. Our company is in the process of getting out health insurance for next year and I would have to say that 75% of the crap we are being fed by the media is not correct. I have sat through 2 different webinars in the last two weeks by people that are in Washington following this whole thing and it is amazing to hear what is REALLY being proposed and what crap the Rush’s of the world are trying to feed us. Take off your Republican and Democrat hat for a bit and look at the facts, it will be like a blind man that gets his site back. Just remember, both parties are responsible for the mess we’re in right now! If both parties don’t get off their high horse and get their crap together, learn to work together and do what is right for the American people (not their party) we are all in deep trouble!
August 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
All, I am a business person in a small ($80million), employee owned company – I am also the HR lead. At 55, I’ve been in business at least long enough to not be still wet behind the ears. I also come from a family that was not born with any silver spoons – and, in fact – had a number of real mountains to climb, in order to become an average, middle class family. Us “kids” all got college education (not that that, in and of itself, makes us any more important or better than anyone else – our parents did NOT have college educations – and they were fine people – the backbone of our country), we all have grown up to be involved, contributing members of society, each with our own individual perspectives. I have been in many different kinds of business, including some very non-typical ones, and my own – but for the past 14 years, have been at the decision making level of manufacturing, service or distribution businesses – with real employees (100 – 400 fte), and real business challenges. Some might even call me “the man” – because I am at that decision making level with a team of other people …. none of us are getting the ridiculous bonuses or paydays that we read about in the paper, and while we are wearing the hat, making decisions about how to “stick it to”, or “not take care of our workers”, we are are also wearing the hat of having to accept the decisions we are making; health care in specific, at this moment. We have worked very hard to maintain competitive, reasonable health coverage that makes our employees (me including, remember, I’m an employee of the company too – and us “decision makers” don’t get ANYTHING that any other employee gets) feel like our coverage is worthwhile – all the while, balancing out paying for the insurance and not breaking the business doing it. The company pays 75% of the total health premium, and employees pay 25%. Our business pays $2million/year in health premiums. It is NOT as rich as it once was, but we’re trying to do what we can. Many of our employees live hand to mouth – and as the HR person, I KNOW and deal with that on a daily basis. This year, our business is down in revenue 40%! – and yet, we have NOT asked for more cost coverage from our employees, nor do we plan to next year. We are trying to do the right thing for the employees, but we are also trying to do the right thing, to keep the business – that feeds all 200 families that are employed her – healthy. I can’t tell you the number of meetings I am a part of, where we cut something to try to keep our health insurance affordable. We’ve cut back on travel, on job ads, company meeting expenses, business travel expenses – you name it, we’re trying to whittle everywhere we can (and PS, we’re actually still one of the healthy companies…..we’re not in danger of closing our doors yet) – So, here I am, the HR person whose job is to care about and watch out for human beings – so I’ve got that DNA in me – but I’m also a business person whose job it is to mitigate risk and manage costs……so I’m not some uncaring bureaucrat who doesn’t give a dang….
But tell me again how it is reasonable that my company is supposed to give more, share more, “spread the wealth” around AND still remain healthy? Do you think we’re just sitting around hoping we get more revenue and we have plenty to underwrite the increased costs that are going to be incurred by another government system? I’ll go back to my original post way back in the beginning; the govt systems we already have in place (even if not a health “insurance” system) don’t work – what in the world makes anyone thing that inventing another one is going to perform any better? (And, by the way, I hear the USPS is in real danger of going extinct…….so, I’m not sure how the claim that the USPS ISN”T losing money is very accurate….).
Ultimately, the whole thing (Health Care stump) gets its fuel because it’s being used for political purposes. Yep, HCR is absolutely needed, lots of parts of the whole system is broken and needs to be fixed – but really solving it gets derailed because it gets used for political gain. Too bad “Business people” get drowned out by politicians.
And Steve, your passive aggressive snipe at me is exactly the kind of thing my 15 year old boy would do to his 8 year old little brother – sneaking a poke under his arm hoping mom wouldn’t see it – but to get him howling. It added absolutely nothing to the discussion except as an attempt to denigrate someone you know is not in agreement with you. Won’t work with me. You do not validate your stance or invalidate others by goading them with irrelevant points. Poke again.
Ok, lunch hour is over – I’m going to do something productive. Have a good weekend everyone. Try to do something positive in the world for somebody else between now and Monday. THAT’s what’ll make a difference!
August 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
“If both parties don’t get off their high horse and get their crap together, learn to work together and do what is right for the American people (not their party) we are all in deep trouble!”
Something I fully agree with.
We need to get away from 1,000 page bills that need to be law this afternoon. Let us all read and understand the details of this plan in the light of day and with enough time to understand and debate the provisions. We need to get away from the name calling and partison politics that rule the day. Wouldn’t it be refreshing if our representitives actually represented us?!? The Nancy Pelosi-like attitudes need to stop. I don’t care that you can ramrod bills down my throat. I’d rather know why you’d want to do that. I suppose in a redistribution scheme the people who are selected as the ‘givers’ will always be critical, but we pay for the privledge of having a voice in how our money is spent by earning it. Is should surprise no one that the group that has identified that they can vote themselves significant pieces of the US Treasury would want to do that.
That is what is destroying our nation, and that is what must stop. Unless we are financially solvent, none of the rest of this will matter. Can we pay some attention to that please.
August 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Some folks on this blog state insurance companies are “evil” as though the management sits around dreaming up new ways to scam the public. My understanding is that insurance premiums are composed of three factors: expected claims based upon actuarial projections, administrative costs, and planned profits. Currently, the claims projections are based upon health forms completed by each participant in the plan and expected provider costs for services. The profits represent what the company management believes it can add to cost and overhead to remain competitive in the free market, just as does any other for profit company. How can insurance companies assess the potential liability in a guaranteed issue (without regard for pre-existing conditions)? Guaranteed issue was tried in Kentucky and drove all but a few companies out-of-state. The ones that remained skyrocketed premium rates. More importantly, after the government runs the private insurers out of the business with single payer, how does the government assess the potential costs of insuring the entire public? The answer is it can’t. The only alternative will be to ration care in some form, which means the 85% who like their current healthcare will lose it to insure the small minority which is uninsured. This plan uses a howitzer to swat a fly.
Have a great weekend!
August 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Democrats learning to work with Republicans – that’s a novel idea…
Dems vow health bill with or without Republicans:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99RJ7VO3&show_article=1
August 14th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I agree with Gary Layton – we need to read and understand any planned changes to the healthcare system. I really like the ideas to which Rick Beliles directed us at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html?mod=djemEditorialPage . Before any changes are made the public should debate these ideas and compare and contrast them to the current offering. I believe most people would embrace this thinking and if private citizens a town hall meeting it would be in support of their adoption. Ramming things through the House or Senate is inappropriate regardless of political affiliation or philosophy. Our natioon’s founding was the result of long discussion, negotiation, compromise and an understanding that the result might not be perfect, but it represented the best thinking of knowledgeable citizens. I think it worked out well, but through the years the political process has corrupted that means of governing. Hopefully, this debate will spark a new day which resembles the lod days much more.
August 14th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Paltman,
On your last point about potential costs…this is where the government model breaks sadly down on the shoulders of the people that pay taxes. You are correct that they can’t anticipate, who possibly could? That is why medicare has ended up costing 9x what it was planned to cost. If this holds true with Obama’s plan we’ll be bankrupt.
Not sure what Obama says it costs anymore. He changes his story almost monthly. For a while he said nothing, then the CBO said a few Triilion. Then he agreed a few trilion. What is a few trillion times 9? Like it or not the wealthy in this country have not yet ammassed enough wealth for this. If Obama would radically lower taxes, maybe we could.
October 1st, 2009 at 7:42 pm
WOW! I haven’t been to this site for a while but I can see there is certainly plenty of opinions. I think the emotions are up because the lasting affects of some of the proposals. Never in the history of this county has government spending been so enormous. I remember the balance budget act of 1996 or 97 passed by a Republican controlled congress was history due to a Demoractic President in office. I have been in health care for 30 years and looking out from the inside I have mixed feelings. Mr. Obama’s commet that 1/2 of the cost of HCR will be paid by eliminating the wast and fraud in the system. A lot of people probably don’t know that Medicare is operated by several Insurance companies that have claims processing capabilites. They are referred to by MCare as F.I.s or Fiscal Intermediaries. Certain sections of the country send their claims to a regional F.I. for processing. I can tell you all that the commercial insurance industry needs competition. They have become too powerful in certain markets and thus, have run roughshod over the public and small businesses trying to compete in the labor market. The question is, who should be the “one” as the government wants, who competes with them. If the shining example is the MCare system, then folks, we are in for trouble. The government has made it so complicated that seniors get frustrated and end up paying for things they shouldn’t. Physicians become so fed up with the reimbursement, they stop taking new MCare patients. Many of you are small business owners and will understand this example. If your product sold for $75 and a customer came your store, picked up the item and is now standing at the register. You ring up $75 on your cash register and the customer hands you a MCare card and pays you $45 and walks out. Then you look and there are 9 more customers with the same item in line. The next three more hand you a Mcare card and pay you $45 each. The next three hand you a Medicaid card and pay you $40 each, the next customer asks to make payments and gives you $5 and the last two have commercial insurance cards and pay you $60 each. For years the term “cost shifting” was common in health care. When the government plans pay so poorly, healthcare providers began increasing fees. Remember the $10 asprin stories? Now that may not sound too terrible but think about this. When you need health care, is it not your desire to have the best care, the best equipment, the best trained physician there is? We Americans are the biggest pain whimps. We want the most advanced diagnostic equipment that looks inside our bodies without invasive procedures that hurt and require recovery time. So technology is fueled by that demand. AND along come the associated costs. Add to that our stellar health habits. We eat like pigs, sit in front of the T.V. or computer and wonder why we are having corinary bypasses at 45. Diabetes has been called an epidemic (even in our children). Our Diabetic educator’s classroom is directly accross the hall from my office and it is always full of newly diagnosed patients. It is true that the health care industry is already absorbing some of the cost for those 47 million uninsured and under insured through E.R. visits. But I can assure you that who ever is estimating what it will cost to insure those additional people is way off base. Medicaid programs in most states is out of control by over utilization and these people are in between entitlment programs. We cheer when a professional athlete is paid $100 million and complain about the healthcare system that has some fo the highest trained professionals some with over 12 years of education and training before they see their first patient for pay. They don’t throw footballs for touchdowns but they can save your life……… Humm…….think our society is a little screwed up? Folks…….I am not trying to solve anything but it is a complicated problem. We in the industry would like it fixed too. Rushing to “pass” something is dangerous and frankly irresponsible. How in the world can they pass legislature and “fill in the blanks” later?
December 10th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
To Steve,
I have read most of the rebuttals you put out there to decent and sensible questions being directed at you. I can see through you though. Ready….you are a liar a cheat and a pathetic liberal who has no money and probably no business either. You’re not worried about taxes of any kind because you don’t make enough money to be bothered with it. Most of the people who are for all of the Obama plans, are poor people and are not affected by them. People like me, though, are the ones that will end up being responsible for your sorry axxes. So, we not only have to be responsible for ourselves and our families but you bottom feeders as well. Enjoy the ride while you can, because in 2010, you will see what most of America is still made of. If you want to live in a nanny state, go to Europe.
December 10th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Although I think Steve is a typical whiny liberal, he does have a point Disbelief. His business may be “successful.” I agree with you 100% that we should not be required to pay for other people’s care, but there are significant numbers of people with “successful business” who suffer from the mental disease that is collectivism. The real key is to allow people to buy their own insurance policies (ala HSAs) and gain the same tax benefits businesses receive for doing so. Let people buy insurance across state lines. And strike down all mandatory coverage requirements. Also, permit real health cooperatives so that smaller businesses can compete with large companies. Then if whiners such as Steve cannot compete let them go out of business.
March 20th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
The report completely ignores the cost to businesses in the form of increased taxes. Any savings my family’s S-corp may realize from tax credits or health insurance related savings will be consumed by over $300,000 in additional income tax. This will need to be offset by increasing prices to customers, reducing employment or decreasing our capital budget.
June 19th, 2010 at 12:57 am
Perhaps the politicians should listed to what Rush Limbaugh is saying….he’s more popular (and sensible) than they are all put together!