Washington pushes new required employee benefit
February 3, 2010 by Jim GiulianoPosted in: Finance, In this week's e-newsletter
A new government study shows how few people save enough for retirement. The president and some members of Congress are pushing legislation to change that — and to involve businesses in the solution, whether or not you want to be involved.
To start things off, the Government Accountability Office released figures showing about six out of every 10 low-income workers have almost no retirement savings and only about two out of every 10 workers in general have retirement accounts with their employers. President Obama and some members of Congress want to change that by requiring businesses to enroll workers in the equivalent of a Roth IRA — but with a small tax credit — funded by payroll deductions.
Workers could opt-out of the plan, and businesses wouldn’t be required to make any matching contributions. What would be required of businesses: administration and recordkeeping for eligible employees in the plan, including contract workers.
The National Small Business Association has voiced its objections to the plan, mainly that it adds to the costs of doing business, especially for companies that right now don’t have a direct-deposit setup and don’t farm out payroll services.
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Tags: payroll, retirement, Roth
February 10th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
We already have forced retirement savings, it’s called Social Security. If they can’t run that right, just put all that in an IRA.
February 10th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
I am 62 years old and have worked all of my adult life. Yet if I were to start drawing social security today to live on, It would not even pay my rent and utilities, much less anything to eat.
The amount of money I have contributed to social security and matched already by my employers would be a hell of a lot more return, if the Government stopped using Social Security Taxes to fund all their stupid programs.
Social Security was set up to fund the Average American’s Retirement, or so we were told. However, most retirees only receive pennies on the dollars they have paid in and cannot leave any outstanding balance to their children.
When I was young and needed a retirement account, I barely had enough income to provide a home and other necessary living expenses, much less contribute anymore money to my retirement. If the Government had used our Social Security Payments the way they should have used them, and then paid us a fair payment when we retired for the money we have already paid them. That would be sufficient to take us through retirement.
I want to ask President Obama, when many of us Baby Boomers can’t work anymore and the Social Security isn’t enough to live on, IS THE GOVERNMENT GOING TO BAIL US OUT!!!!!!
No they won’t, not under Obama’s regime, they just want socialized medicine that will dictate that because we are so old and cannot work anymore, that when we need life saving medical care, we should just die and not be a burden on society anymore.
WE HAVE ALL BEEN LIED TO ALL OF OUR LIVES BY THE GOVERNMENT, AND ONLY THE GOVERNMENTS HIGH RANKING SENATORS, CONGRESSMEN, PRESIDENTS HAVE A BETTER RETIREMENT PROGRAM PAID BY THE GOVERNMENT THAN US REGULAR AMERICANS WHO HAVE PAID INTO THIS GOVERMENT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS THAT FUND GOVERNMENTS OFFICIALS RETIREMENTS.
We could fix this economy today if we paid all of the retired senators, congressmen, and presidents the same retirement they expect all of us to live on in our old age. Then use the millions of dollars to get this economy going again.
February 10th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
I was raised to take care of myself and my family.
I do not think employeers should be responsable for withholding income tax either.
I have a clerk that must spent 10 hours per week now keeping up with state, local and Federal required paper work.
JP
February 10th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Whoever the National Small Business Association is does not speak for me. I suspect they are a shill for the wealthy who like to pretend that they are idealistic risk takers who start small businesses and like to hide behind mom and pop businesses that account for most of the community. In reality they are privileged plutocrats of inherited wealth and social status who use small businesses, farmers, pro-lifers, and bigots to further their true agenda.
This is a sensible and reasonable approach, if it is even true. I’m sure it will not apply to ten employee enterprises, and I guarantee there will be thousands of financial service companies who will be glad to do the record keeping, just as they do with the SIMPLE and 401K’s out there.
It will be a good thing for the well-meaning worker who needs the extra motivation. It will not help the majority of paycheck to paycheck families who are doomed to lives of quiet desperation due to the disappearance of the middle class.
kd meares
webb city, mo
smegma@cableone.net
(make fun of the email address if you wish. it says more about you than it does about me. my name is out there, where’s yours?)
February 10th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
I am a small business owner and I have a number of friends who are also. I guarantee you none of us have inherited wealth and are in no way privileged plutocrats. We pay our employees first, and if there’s anything left, then we get paid. I don’t farm out my payroll services–way too expensive–and it’s a nightmare trying to meet the mandated payroll taxes, complete all the various forms, etc. I challenge kd meares to be responsible not only for his own family, but for the livliehoods of the employees who work for him–it’s a heavy responsibility. Small businesses are the ones who create jobs in this country, but they are being squeezed from all sides with mandates and demands and banks who are calling loans on perfectly healthy companies and freezing all their credit.
February 10th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
AWESOME!!! Our government officials just can’t seem to figure out why jobs keep leaving America. I am with the guy that was raised to take care of myself.
Our government needs to leave us alone. Let us make a living without telling us how to run a business or what to do with our money. Small business are struggling to make ends meet. Elaine is trying to keep her business running without buying unnecessary tax and regulation compliance service. Instead she does it herself… I can think of a million more productive uses of her time (with family, working on how to get more business, etc.) All of these tax compliance costs are a result of the most onerous income taxation system in the world. It is why companies (and the jobs) leave the USA. Tax compliance is a $300 Billion head ache for all Americans… what a joke.
Check http://www.fairtax.org to see one way we can jobs and economic growth back in the USA. US Economic growth is the only way we have a chance to pay back our debts. Without growth, there won’t be any companies or jobs left to actually help Americans pay for retirement.
February 10th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
elaine,
i think we are on the same side. i resent the way the country club republicans (and democrats, if they qualify) use us real small business people as pawns to get their agenda.
did you prosper by the bush repeal of capital gains taxes for multi-millionaires? are you happy that the silver spoon crowd aren’t satisfied with 2 million dollars tax-free from mommy and daddy when they die, but want unlimited untaxed wealth?
all they do is call it a death tax, act like it is a burden to small family farms and small business people like us, and keep on fattening themselves at the economic trough. i’m not talking about real capitalists like warren buffet, bill gates, or even the execrable donald trump. they deserve what they’ve built, the same with most new money. but, by the way… i guarantee that there is no tax code, high or low, that will change their spirit. they want to win, and if they keep 95% or 5%, it doesn’t matter to them.
inherited wealth creates an unlevel playing field. i think any offspring should consider a couple million tax free dollars, up to 40,000 dollars/year while their sugar tit is alive (for a couple), and the finest educational opportunity money can buy is enough of a head start. even in a monopoly game every player gets 1500 bucks to start and all the properties are available if you are lucky and wily enough.
this alleged program is not business unfriendly. if you want to help businesses, you’ll do something about the horrible medical care delivery system in this country. why is there somebody getting paid for my medical care for one day for every six days i work? i’m not getting any benefit from them.
wow, it’s easy to get off on a rich people bashing rant. again, i’ve no problem with enteprenerial (sp) wealth, and am fortunate enough to enjoy a piece of the action myself. I didn’t even qualify for Obama’s tax cut, and I’m happy that a lot of people (98% of families) did get some much needed help. i especially resent being used as a token by the aristocrats.
let’s keep our eyes open and not be hoodwinked by the likes of the naysayers and fearmongers.
kd meares
February 10th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
This retirement plan sounds like ENRON or Arthur Madek (?), etc.. People invested in retirement programs and thought they would be safe in their retirements, but they retired busted. It amaze me how someone is always to con people into believing they interest of the American people at heart. The War of LIE got a lot our children killed in Iraq. The Republican Party, when they were in power for eight years under George W. MY PET GOAT spent recklessly and was not concerned about how it would pay back what they stole. They televise claim that the Stimulus Package that was put in action by Obama would further take down America, yet in their districts they eagerly took the stimulus money and tried to say this aid was of their own doing. The lying is getting so thick in Washington and our State houses, until people are numb as to what their representatives are saying and doing; yet they are confused as to which direction to go in. People had better get their intellect out of the moth in the closet and began to think logically and rationally for themselves. The networks are telling people to constantly email them as to what they think; it is about time for people to trust their intelligence. A lot of people are to triffling to think for themselves and are quick to join some group without even clearly knowing what the agenda is. Weigh every matter and make the logical decision as to what is the right thing to do. Make banks and financial institutes to obey the Law or be prosecuted for their criminal actions. Stop lobbyist and special interest from stealing our economy by the help of corrupt politicians; PROSECUTE THEM ALL. Impeach and prosecute corrupt Judges in our Courts, along with corrupt Attorneys. This the Government BY the People, OF the People, FOR the People WHICH WILL NOT PERISH FROM THE EARTH. Believe that and Trust in that… God Bless. Reverend Ira L. Lewis iradject@yahoo.com.
February 10th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Hey Rev Ira….good post. Can we start with all the changes with Obama??? How’s that change working for you?
February 11th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
In reference to KD, Your first post, where did all the jobs go, how about overseas from NAFTA (1993) under clinton and before the Republican congress. 1994, the Republican majority came to the house and senate, and we had what? Growth, employment, new jobs, lower debt, how about a zero budget deficit.
Yes, Bush did have to spend a lot of money, for what, how about to go after the extremeist that attacked America, at what price do you value your freedom, security, have you stood up to defend our country? Let us know.
Your second post, well 70 percent of America is small business, the Mom and Pops, I have a business, employees, and because of the economy, we also like others mention (Elaine) that paying the employees first, then if there is anything left over, pay yourself. What about product, inventory, even (JIT, just in time) inventory takes money, and if people are not spending, that reduces sales, and we have seen a lot of our customers close shop, because of business is so bad. So if the Gov’t wants to force business and even force the employees to contribute to a retirement plan, how much intervention(in your face) do you want the gov’t to have. My employees have an option to contribute to a 401K, yet they all refuse. So why should the gov’t tell us how to have the employees save for retirement. They already tax each individual too much, yet give themselves a raise, the have made a mockery of the SS system, first by electing it to be made part of the general fund instead of a special fund, then use the funds to pay for a lot of wasteful events, (Copenhagen) many more to be sure.
As you mention that you have a small piece of action yourself, a business, yet if you take a look at NFIB, you will see that these are people who fight for the small business, yes we have to pay for membership, but the frontline push, the voice they have with the house and senate can not be overrated. You mentioned that the National Small Business Association does not speak for you. Yet without merit, you mention “I suspect they are a shill for the wealthy who like to pretend that they are idealistic risk takers who start small businesses and like to hide.” Research before you unknowningly state something wrong.
Get focused on how to avoid more gov’t intrusion, taxation, mis-representation, get the adminstration changed so as we have people who are fiscally responsible, pay their taxes, and listen to the people.
Mike Birky
Cactus Creek Gourmet Coffee Roasters,
President
February 11th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
If people don’t enroll and put money into their existing 401k accounts why does anyone think that just because you force them to enroll and them tell them they can opt out, they are actually going to stay enrolled. The fact is that as long as people who don’t want to put money into 401k accounts have the option to opt out of this program, as it is propossed, they will. And if they stay enrolled and 20 years from now we have an real recession, that wipes out 90% of their savings, where will they be. Next the government will want to dictate how many times a day we can breath since it has such a major affect on global warming. They might do it in the next hearings if they can ever get back to congress in the global snowstorms to have the global warming meetings.
February 12th, 2010 at 1:01 am
kudos to many contributors who are thoughtful and articulate. it is a refreshing change from many conservative forums which are just an echo chamber.
i was careful not to malign this organization, since i am not a member and only a casual monitor. i try to check in on a variety of forums so as not to just reinforce my prejudices. i apologize that i presumed this organization was likely a front for the obstructionist status quo-protecting aristocracy. i’m not presently excepting the organization either, it just isn’t relevant. it’s the message, not the messenger. no one owns the ideas, and my personal struggle is similar to most others here, unless you were of the manor born. my street cred stacks up to most of the contribuors here, but again, that is irrelevant.
our little 6 person business grew to 40, then riffed to 15 last year. as we grew, we put employees first, just as you have to. the biggest insult to our ability to grow came from worker’s comp ripoffs, and then in the last decade or so, the health insurance costs. i’ve sat through too many annual renewals deciding whether to scalp the program or suck up the double digit costs. i’ve had too many employees that were grateful to hear that although we couldn’t make an annual raise, that we would continue their benefits.
the economic meltdown didn’t happen on obama’s watch. how can anybody forget the environment in fall 2008 with depression and banking system collapse almost a certainty. george bush and the congress DID save the global economy, whether you like to admit it or not. it was a bi-partisan effort, and of course the TARP program could have been done much better with respect to disgusting corporate bonuses and accountability, but without it we would all be wearing rain barrels. on this matter, 8 out of 6 economists agree.
listen, folks (channeling obama): every regulation isn’t a bad thing and a business destroyer. we need a middle class; it could be restored in 2 generations just by having proper estate tax law. if this regulation comes into fruition, and you don’t already have a pension plan for your employees, then why don’t you? our SIMPLE plan costs us zero to administer because we made it clear that we won’t be the interpreter and customer support for the financial company. we allow a half hour meeting a year with the consultant, and the principals get to benefit from it and our employees do as well.
i already made the point that working class people will just opt out. this won’t change until there really is a middle class that doesn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck. sadly, our own experience is that 3/4 of them use it as an ATM machine and as soon as there’s a few hundred dollars in the account, they liquidate it. i think i saw a stat that upwards of 75% (or was it 90%) of people who leave a job with a 401K liquidate it within a few months.
you all are thoughtful people, and a much welcome break from the gun nuts whom i agitate sometimes. you talk about a bunch of paranoids, you can’t believe the fear and hype that they live under.
hey, it’s been fun, but like the rest of you, i’ve got to run
best wishes and success. it’s been a tough one, but really, we’ve dodged a bad one.
kd meares
February 12th, 2010 at 10:17 am
As a small business owner I work a minimum of 60 hours a week and have done so for the past 20 years. My business employees 50 people with good paying jobs with health insurance and yes, 401k company matching retirement accounts.
I don’t need the government legislating what benefits I should provide to my employees. The market for skilled employees as well as good business sense requires what I provide my employees in order to maintain a good educated staff. If the government wants to get involved, let it be on the side of education. Our entire country would benefit from a more educated workforce.
KD, You are way off base with your comments about the inheritance tax (aka death tax). First, the money is anything but tax free. I pay a hefty tax on each one of those dollars I save. And, yes I hope they will benefit my children some day. But, explain me why after paying a disproportionate in taxes on those hard earned dollars, the government should tax those dollars again to the detriment of my family.
I am taxed at a much higher rate than the middle class. Yet, there is no credit given for employing 50 people, nor is there any credit for the countless hours I work to ensure that those 50 people continue to be employed and are able to pay their taxes.
Anyone that thinks that what I do or countless other business owners do is easy hasn’t tried. It is easy to be employed by someone else and let them carry the burden to ensure it all continues merrily along. Starting and running a business and watching out for the welfare of your employees is not easy. It takes countless hours, many sacrifices and a great determination to create a successful business. Yet, we use terms like “working class” to in someway belittle the work of successful entrepreneurs who contribute greatly to this country. Do people think that what business owners and entrepreneurs do is not “work?”
It is well past the time for people to start thinking about what others are providing to the economic welfare of this country. This attitude that these new government programs should be funded on the shoulders of the few who already pay a disproportionate amount may make good politics but it will cause some of us to reconsider why we do what we do.
MA Lyle
February 12th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
We are a small faith based non-profit (501c3). We do not have enough income to supply healthcare benefits for our employees. I would not be in favor of providing a retirement plan untill I could provide health care for my employees.
February 12th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
kd meares …
Wow, you really like punishing success. Entrepreneurs weren’t born with lots of inherited wealth. They were born with the ability to get off their seats. The purpose of a job is to accomplish a task that benefits the business. When I hire an employee, I’m not adopting them. Personally I wouldn’t hire such a lemming.
One thing you need to be aware of, the more difficult you make hiring and retaining employees, the less employees we’ll hire. That means higher unemployment. I wonder if this recession would have been quick and painless if the Fed Govt wasn’t promising higher taxes, carbon taxes, health care taxes and more government control. I know a lot of entrepreneurs that cleaned house of all unnecessary employees before costs went up and have held off on hiring. Our insurance rates have gone up a lot this year because they really raised the rates in case the government wouldn’t allow it in the future. So overall, we’re worse off. How’s that for hope and change.
February 14th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
friends,
it seems to take longer to agree with each other than if we disagreed. i responded originally because this article seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction that every thing must be opposed and obstructed.
m.a. lyle, congratulations on your contribution. i hope you have access to an accountant without a political agenda who can explain “step up in basis”, gift rules, and other inheritance issues as they really are. i’m not qualified to parse it to the n’th degree, but the tax code is not onerous, and still allows tremendous transfers of generational wealth. it just would be nice if children who aren’t born rich had a chance at a tilted playing field instead of the crumbs left on the edges.
it isn’t free enterprise if all the power is distributed by birthright. i don’t favor the government confiscating and re-distributing wealth, here’s a novel idea: SPEND IT! Gift it to your CHILDREN while you are alive! Even on death, they will get SIX MILLION DOLLARS TAX-FREE.
90% of wealth is in hands of 1% of people. If they SPEND it, it will create countless opportunities for us 98% who get to scratch for the remaining 5% of all wealth.
Please don’t bother to deconstruct this argument with an Investment speech. It is the incremental wealth I’m talking about, not the foundational asset. Furthermore, don’t get that chestnut out about how rich people will stop investing and trying to be richer. Donald Trump (the worst poster boy I can think of for capitalism) and his ilk will never stop trying to win, no matter what the rules of the game.
you legit small business folks who’ve responded are the heroes of the economy. there is a much bigger pie out there, and it isn’t the government that is in the way. how did entrepreneurs do in the Gilded age?
this is a fun hobby, but each time, i think the thread must end. good luck to all
kdm
February 14th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
First, let’s elaborate a bit on the estate tax. For an individual the first 3.5 million dollars of their estate is exempt from taxes and this amount doubles to 7 million dollars for a married couple. Therefore, kd meares is somewhat correct with the statement that one could pass over 6 million dollars to their children on their death. But wait, what if one parent dies before the other? If the estate is divided equally and each parent wills their share of the estate to their children and not to the living spouse then all works as described. But, if they instead will it to the living spouse, guess what – the living spouse is entitled to only a 3.5 million dollar exemption. They just lost the other 3.5 million dollar exemption and the government will take 45% of every dollar of the estate value that exceeds the single 3.5 million dollar exemption. Yes, good estate planning can mitigate this and protect more of ones estate, which is great if you’re an estate planner!
kd meares has a solution, just spend your estate while your alive. Great answer! Let see, if I only new when my wife and I were going to die I could calculate how much we need put aside for retirement, healthcare and the like. What about any unforeseen catastrophic events? I need to set some money aside for those too – how much? Problem is that not one of us is that clairvoyant. We don’t know if we will live to be 100 or die tomorrow shoveling snow!
What percent of estates are affected by the estate tax anyway? Well based on 2008 numbers (estate fillings) it is over 40%. Not a lot over 40% but still over 40%. That means 4 people out of 10 will be impacted by the estate tax. Take into account inflation and the percentage of the population affected by the estate tax will increase every year. This percentage is much greater than the 1% that kd meares statement might lead one to believe.
kd meares believes that this “redistribution of wealth” is necessary to level the playing field so that everyone has a chance for success. And without it, the meager will only have access to the “crumbs left on the edges.” Does kd meares somehow believe that the only successful people in this country started with a fat bank account?
My family struggled to make ends meet. Yet, I started my small business from the savings I put away while working for others. In my business’ 20 year history, we have NEVER laid of an employee unless it was with cause (i.e. fired). Not one person was laid off during the last economic crises. In fact, we have and are continuing to expand and hire more employees.
Did the fact that I was not born with wealth inhibit me from creating a successful business? Was the playing field was “tilted” against me? Were the “crumbs left on the edges” the only things left for me? The answer to all these questions is a resounding NO! I believe that most successful entrepreneurs will concur that whether or not they started with money was not a significant factor in determining their success. Money in is own right is no guarantee of success nor has it ever been.
And finally, it is my opinion the estate tax is nothing more that a tax on already taxed dollars. It does not “level the playing field” period! Entrepreneurs will succeed or fail in their endeavors in spite of the money they have or don’t have.
As for legislating 401k and healthcare insurance requirements for businesses, it will probably happen. Will it spur employment? – Absolutely not. Anything that increases the burden on business will have a negative impact on growth and employment. If it becomes more cost effective to eliminate or automate a task then that is exactly what will happen and employment will suffer.
If you want to truly give people a greater chance for success – educate them. Make it possible and obtainable for those that want a good education to get one! Today, a high school degree provides little guarantee of anything. A better educated a society will create many more opportunities for all of us!
MALyle
February 15th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
MA Lyle,
thank you for your reasonable critique, but i believe there are a couple of huge holes. i was afraid that my suggestion to have an accountant explain the law might seem patronizing, i didn’t mean it that way. i just happened to benefit from a non-partisan accountant a few years ago.
again, with the suggestion that i don’t believe in new money? i mentioned several people in each message that deserve everything they’ve built, and, btw, i believe that includes MA Lyle from your thumbnail autobiography.
the holes:
1) thanks for buttressing my 6 million dollar figure. i knew it was close, but the politicians have been tampering with it since i set up my trust in 1999. i know we needed to eliminate all taxes on the wealthy to invade Iraq in 2003, and send a bunch of middle aged electricians, accountants, and other lower middle class pawns off to war. i don’t know how the super-rich are able to bear the burden of all their patriotic tax cuts.
2) Did you move a decimal point? Based on 2001, about 4% of all estates had to file because the estate exceeded the low threshold of 675K that year. Only 2% owed any tax. Unless there’s some kind of die-off in 2008, I’m sure the values are similar.
3) I was going to whine about you not mentioning the step-up-in-basis flagrant gift to the rich, but now I’m confused about it’s status. Previously a spouse could receive 200 billion or whatever that has never seen a nickel of tax, which might get taxed by the heirs in a decade or two. It seems the step-up rules are changing, so you might be right, your spouse will get ONLY 4.3 million before some of the GAINS are taxed.
I agree on the education soap box. And I’m willing to pay taxes to support a robust public school system because an educated populace is important to our society. I’m also happy there are private schools so the wealthy can be rewarded for their success by giving their children an advantage if they have the character to use it.
As to how much to give (or spend) while you are living? Give it all. He who dies rich dies disgraced.
kd meares
February 15th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
oops,
i meant to leave this link which was helpful, and didn’t seem overly biased.
it’s on the internet, so it must be true.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/PlanYourEstate/5bigMythsAboutTheEstateTax.aspx
kd meares
February 15th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Kd meares and I both need to do a better job with our comments. First off there is NO ESTATE TAX IF YOU DIE IN 2010. Yes, there is a capital gains element that could affect the inheritance but there is no estate tax today. Now, I personally think the capital gains portion is fair because it taxes the capital gains of the assets of the estate that were not previously taxed. This does not amount to double taxation but rather a fair and equitable tax on investments that might have otherwise escaped taxation!
Here is the rub. While changes that took place in 2010 seem fair and equitable, if congress does not act on the estate tax issue (and we know how effective congress has been lately) then the estate tax reverts back to a 55% rate on the value of the estate above the one million dollar exclusion. When this happens the estate tax will impact a significant percentage of us. Add up the value of your 401k, home and other assets and it surprisingly does not take too long to reach one million dollars.
MALyle
February 16th, 2010 at 12:51 am
MA Lyle,
I think our comments can be generic enough without reverting to teeny technicalities, as long as we are not hysterical.
The ridiculous situation of no estate tax in 2010 is a by-product of the republicans immediate agenda to protect the super wealthy the minute they got in power with their marionette george bush in 2001. At the time, the taxable estate amount was about a million, but the next million was about a 10% rate, progressing up to 40ish % at 6 million. Spouses still had the unlimited step up in basis, and I think the step ups were never taxed.
I believe the Dems want to keep the exempt limit at about 6 million, similar to last year. Which means that only the very wealthy will be affected. If you are between 5 and 10 million, you might have a little exposure, and here is where you should start gifting at max levels.
You are right, a 1 million dollar figure is too low. Will you allow that any level is too high? 100 million? 10 million? Hell, I’m happy to let new money go through a couple of generations, sort of like the idea of copyright law, but maybe not as stupid as 75 years. I don’t see why the Kennedy’s, Rockefellers, and countless other landed gentry should get to hog the trough.
Rich people – just give 40,000 per year to your married children, 10K to your grandkids/nieces/nephews, and try to spend a huge chunk on useless crap. I think a 800K nest egg, a paid private school education, and a chunk of 6 million untaxed money is a fair reward for your accidents of birth. Let me and MA compete for half the pie instead of the crumbles. Trickle down economics is a ridiculous failure when you keep gilding the lily.
Obama gave 98% of working families a tax cut. Probably 95% or more of the TEA party members. Certainly Joe the Plumber got a tax cut unless he persuaded someone to pay him for his celebrity.
it’s been fun, but gotta run.
kdm
February 16th, 2010 at 8:36 am
Final post…
I encourage everyone to challenge any comment made on this forum. It is much too easy for us to accept for fact any item or comment that appears to bolster our own point of view. Yet, we gain significantly more knowledge when we try to understand the facts around an opposing point of view. This does not infer that we will or even should change our perspective. But rather, at the minimum, we will gain a more complete and solid understanding of both sides of the discussion.
kd meares, a simple note for you. Your personal attacks and comments, while entertaining to yourself and possibly others, do nothing to enhance the credibility of your arguments. Rather they only act to belittle your contributions.
Thank you everyone.
MALYLE
February 16th, 2010 at 10:47 am
???
I scanned my comments, and I saw kudos, congratulations, reasonable, etc.. directed at the readers? I even gave George Bush and Donald Trump credit (after calling him execrable- does anybody really mind that?). The closest personal comment was that MA Lyle was deserving of everything he/she had built.
These are personal attacks? No apology from these quarters. While I caused a digression of subject, I believe our dialog shed more light than heat. Misinformation is my mortal enemy, and information is my friend. And I’ve never thought that diminishing others elevated me. Anyhow, I wanted to grant MA the last post, but just am bewildered by this last advice. My glass is half full, god bless america; live long and prosper.